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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    pretty sure the factory setups that also incorporate port injection are doing it to keep the valves clean, though it can't hurt to have another set of injectors when really turning it up
    They were able to adjust keeping the valves clean through injector positioning. The high performance motors adding port injection are doing it because they need fuel.

    Lambo 5.2 V10 went from direct injection to port injection, LT4 added port injection for LT5, Bentley W12 added port injection, Audi 2.5 TFSI added port injection for latest and highest output version, etc.

    It's for performance and fueling headroom not valve cleaning. Look at how many direct injection motor don't have port injection and how they it is always the highest performance/most expensive variants that get it.

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    So high end models are now subject to primitive fueling techniques? I don't know if I can buy that from an engineering standpoint. There really is no advantage to port injection other than the valve cleaning aspect. re positioning an injector in the combustion chamber would do exactly nothing to keep a valve clean. until there's a technical article from one of these manufacturers saying it was really for performance I'm going to say it is just to cut down on carbon removal for the people paying for a premium vehicle

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    So high end models are now subject to primitive fueling techniques?
    What's primitive about port injection? You know direct injection has been around since the 50's right?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    There really is no advantage to port injection other than the valve cleaning aspect. re positioning an injector in the combustion chamber would do exactly nothing to keep a valve clean. until there's a technical article from one of these manufacturers saying it was really for performance I'm going to say it is just to cut down on carbon removal for the people paying for a premium vehicle
    What are you talking about? There are huge advantages including far less fuel pressure necessary as well as a much larger injection window especially as revs rise.

    I don't think you understand the engineering aspect.

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    No, I understand it completely. Port injection is a step backwards, akin to throwing a carburetor on an engine that came with port injection would be. There is a reason engines can now run 12:1 or more compression on pump gas on direct injection where 11:1 is about as far as you'd want to go with port on most head designs and a streetable cam. It is also how the N54 gets away with running boost with 10.25:1 compression.

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    No, I understand it completely. Port injection is a step backwards, akin to throwing a carburetor on an engine that came with port injection would be.
    If it was a step backwards manufacturers wouldn't be adding it to direct injected high performance motors.

    How is it akin to throwing a carburetor on the engine?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    There is a reason engines can now run 12:1 or more compression on pump gas on direct injection where 11:1 is about as far as you'd want to go with port on most head designs and a streetable cam.
    Um my BMW M3 from last decade literally has 12.0:1 compression with port injection. There is no modern BMW motor with higher compression.

    Direct injection is primarily an efficiency, not performance, technology. You can run leaner mixtures on pump fuel before detonation which equals fuel economy savings.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    It is also how the N54 gets away with running boost with 10.25:1 compression.
    People have been running boost on far higher compression ratios for far longer than the N54 has even existed. 10.2:1 isn't even high.

    You did not list any of the downsides I mentioned or show how port injection is supposedly a step backward to 'ancient' technology. Once again direct injection has a shorter injection window and this window grows shorter as revs rise with fuel demands growing geometrically. This is why the M S65 and S85 engines that can rev to 8500 rpm did not include direct injection despite coming to market after the N54.

    Furthermore, the fuel system gets taxed quickly especially if running ethanol and then there are the high pressure requirements.

    The McLaren M838T V8 is light years ahead of the N54 in design yet it doesn't have direct injection.

    No, you do not understand it completely.

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    yeah, running below MBT timing on your M3. and the only people able to run that kind of compression and anything over 8 psi were running meth or race gas. you really don't have any clue do you?

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    Oh and the short injection window is easily accounted for with a higher flowing injector or even the same one at higher pressure. The higher pressure alone also makes for an increase in effective octane thru the latent heat of vaporization and better atomization. Port injection is 80s tech, the type of direct injection being used now especially with piezoelectric injectors is light years ahead in technology. if you cannot see that, you have no mechanical or engineering sense and really should just keep to having other people build your toys

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    yeah, running below MBT timing on your M3. and the only people able to run that kind of compression and anything over 8 psi were running meth or race gas. you really don't have any clue do you?
    That's kind of exactly the point. If you aren't running pump fuel the compression with boost isn't the problem it would be on 91 octane.

    Seems you don't have the clue and you have yet to address any other point I made because... they're correct.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    Oh and the short injection window is easily accounted for with a higher flowing injector or even the same one at higher pressure.
    Click here to enlarge

    Yeah that's we have all these 9k rpm direct injection only N54's right?

    A bigger injector alone isn't going to flow more fuel. You need higher pressure pumps. Where are those again for the N54?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    Port injection is 80s tech, the type of direct injection being used now especially with piezoelectric injectors is light years ahead in technology. if you cannot see that, you have no mechanical or engineering sense and really should just keep to having other people build your toys
    Direct injection is 50's tech (really 40's):
    The 1954 Mercedes-Benz W196 Formula 1 racing car engine used Bosch direct injection derived from wartime aircraft engines. Following this racetrack success, the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SL, the first production sports car to use fuel injection, used direct injection.
    Plus exactly when haven't diesels been around?

    Going by date of the technology is flawed and proves your limited understanding.

    Not to mention your 'short injection' window is 'easily' accounted for when literally it becomes such a problem that manufacturers are adding port injection.

    Maybe you can explain to all of us why Lamborghini decided that to rev to 8800 rpm they need to go to dual-injection from direct injection only? Why is it the process goes from DI only to DI + PI and not the other way around?

    Maybe you can explain to all of us why the dual injected high performance motors all outperform their DI only counterparts?

    Is the Audi 2.5 TFSI doing what it is doing because the port injection is... just cleaning valves? The engine has been around for over a decade yet it was not until it received port injection was it able to run 9's on the factory turbo.

    You say better 'atomization' without providing any proof or how this is accomplished. There is a point of no return and a point of diminishing returns plus the pump can't just increase pressure indefinitely. Regardless, the main benefit you get with direct injection is the compression bump and once this is eliminated (race gas, duh) if you're running higher compression on the port injected motor it actually has the advantage. Like part of the reason why my M3 at ~8 psi annihilates any 335i running 8 psi or even 20 psi or more.

    The fuel pressure requirements jump at such increments with direct injection it becomes a liability and that is why you see port injection on modern performance motors (notice not on the commuter cars) because it is the better high performance fueling technology. Plus why do you think carbon build up is a thing? Because of where, how, and when direct injection injects. Not an issue with port injection.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but direct injection is primarily a product of the fuel economy and emissions climate. That is why you saw the cheap commuter cars get it first namely in the BMW lineup.

    Hilarious how your 'ancient' technology is actually direct injection but you are not a student of automotive history. That much is crystal clear.

  10. #35
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    Just because they had direct injection then does not make it nearly as precise as it is now, and just because there isn't a better pump available for the N54 doesn't mean $#@!. Plenty of platforms have better hpfp setups that will work. Direct injection does allow for leaner air fuel for more power and it makes every fuel more detonation resistant. Modern direct injection is absolutely better. The more efficient the engine is the more you can get out of it.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    Just because they had direct injection then does not make it nearly as precise as it is now,
    I wonder if anyone could make this argument regarding port injection?

    Wasn't his argument that port injection is ancient though? When in actuality the first fuel injected car for sale was... gasp... direct injected?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    Modern direct injection is absolutely better. The more efficient the engine is the more you can get out of it.
    Like how the port injected M3 S65 V8 is more efficient and higher compression than the direct injection N54? Click here to enlarge

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    That direct injection really doesn't compare. And of course they're going to have an M engine more efficient even with Port injection. The head is garbage on the N54 so there goes efficiency.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    The head is garbage on the N54 so there goes efficiency.
    Oh gosh so I guess even with direct injection it isn't such an impressive performance technology that it can mask these deficiencies?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    That direct injection really doesn't compare. And of course they're going to have an M engine more efficient even with Port injection.
    No kidding.

    It's hilarious to see people hump direct injection and think it's something new. BMW put it on the 335 for fuel efficiency and that's what it is, a fuel efficiency and emissions technology and not a performance technology.

    The only reason you see some kid tout it is because his N54 is direct injected. Nevermind the fact he got literally every point he made about it wrong.

    The industry is going toward direct injection PLUS port injection for performance motors, not the opposite. Port injection is the superior high performance fueling technology. Period.

  14. #39
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    It's just easier to get enough fuel in for now, it does not make it superior.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    It's just easier to get enough fuel in for now, it does not make it superior.
    Sounds to me like it's therefore superior at getting enough fuel per your own statement...

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    Easy doesn't mean better, as long as you have a direct injection setup that can flow enough it will make more power than a port setup every time.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    Easy doesn't mean better
    It can though and in this case port injection is better at fueling high performance engines especially those running ethanol or with high redlines.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    as long as you have a direct injection setup that can flow enough it will make more power than a port setup every time.
    Only if it is higher compression. Remove the compression bump from the equation (which is where you get an advantage) and the difference is negligible if you can even calculate one.

    This is an old argument that has been covered here 50+ times.

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    Why handicap one of it's benefits though? More compression makes more power. Always has. We're looking to generate cylinder pressure which is what everything is about.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JBacon335 Click here to enlarge
    Why handicap one of it's benefits though? More compression makes more power.
    I could not agree with you more.

    Somehow I'm running higher compression with boost on a port injected motor than you direct injected N54 guys though...

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    Just because you have high compression and boost running most likely E85, that now means port injection is better??? Your logic is severely flawed. You would theoretically be able to run even more boost, more compression and leaner if your engine was direct injected with the same head flow, camshafts and everything else being equal. I'm pretty damn sure you'd make more power then.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    Just because you have high compression and boost running most likely E85, that now means port injection is better??? Your logic is severely flawed.
    That wasn't my argument. You said direct injection allows higher compression yet the reality is I'm running higher compression with boost on a port injected BMW than you are on a direct injected motor.

    Reality is the highest compression BMW's have all been port injected.

    You do not have a consistent argument.

    Let's recap:

    "Port injection ancient." WRONG.
    First fuel injected car for sale had direct injection.

    "Higher compression with direct injection." WRONG
    Highest compression BMW's to date are all port injected.

    "Shorter injection window easily accounted for." WRONG
    Highest revving motors are port injected.

    "Stated engines can now run 12.0:1 or higher". WRONG
    BMW was doing this a decade ago on port injection.

    "Port Injection is a step backwards." WRONG
    Modern performance motors are adding port injection, not subtracting it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    You would theoretically be able to run even more boost, more compression and leaner if your engine was direct injected with the same head flow, camshafts and everything else being equal. I'm pretty damn sure you'd make more power then.
    On pump gas. I'm running E85. WTF do I need direct injection for? Better mileage?

    I could go to leaded fuel and do 16:1 in theory.

    Plus my M3 will wipe the floor with your N54 needing far less boost to do so. Weird the port injected motor has a huge efficiency advantage in the real world.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Plus my M3 will wipe the floor with your N54 needing far less boost to do so. Weird the port injected motor has a huge efficiency advantage in the real world.
    Subtract 1L or 25% from all numbers to make it a more apples to apples. Then rev the N54 out the same RPM or at least 8200 which is the limit of the stock DME.

    After that is all done to make the engines more comparable if that M motor STILL did not outperform the n54 lb for lb of boost I would be surprised.


    In other news, Sticky are you ever going to claim back the 1/2 mile E9X record? It was yours for a while IIRC.

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    3 out of 5 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    You have really shown how little you know about engine dynamics, this conversation is a waste of time because you are too retarded to understand how an engine actually works.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    You have really shown how little you know about engine dynamics, this conversation is a waste of time because you are too retarded to understand how an engine actually works.
    what a poor choice of words. smh what ignorance

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    You have really shown how little you know about engine dynamics
    Because you have been factually incorrect about every point you've tried to make? Logical.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90Bimmer335 Click here to enlarge
    this conversation is a waste of time because you are too retarded to understand how an engine actually works.
    It's a waste of time because you've been exposed as a fanboy who thinks direct injection is the best because it's what he has.

    BMW just chose to give it to their economy cars and not their high performance M motors because their engineers are retards. McLaren naturally employs the most retarded of all.

    Click here to enlarge

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