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  1. #1
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    Proof of OE/Gintani dyno manipulation

    I know this tends to be a pro Gintani board, but this is proof of blatant tampering and is unacceptable...

    A recent OE tuning before/after dyno graph caught my eye as fishy and there has been considerable discussion about it on M3post. Here are some quick mathematical comparisons/analysis with other tuners:

    Active Autowerke:

    Click here to enlarge

    rpm % gain
    2500 12.0%
    3000 11.1%
    3500 6.8%
    4000 7.9%
    4500 7.1%
    5000 4.3%
    5500 8.0%
    6000 11.1%
    6500 12.3%
    7000 6.9%
    7500 6.6%
    8000 9.0%



    GIAC (tune+filter):

    Click here to enlarge

    rpm % gain
    2500 8.2%
    3000 10.5%
    3500 4.0%
    4000 3.7%
    4500 4.9%
    5000 5.9%
    5500 5.7%
    6000 6.7%
    6500 5.8%
    7000 6.3%
    7500 5.2%
    8000 6.0%



    Dinan (no graph)

    6000 3.3%
    8000 1.8%



    ESS:

    Click here to enlarge

    rpm % gain
    2500 5.3%
    3000 5.5%
    3500 4.5%
    4000 3.2%
    4500 2.5%
    5000 3.2%
    5500 5.7%
    6000 8.8%
    6500 5.5%
    7000 5.4%
    7500 4.9%
    8000 5.2%



    Evolve (tune+filter -- two different cars/days):

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


    rpm % gain
    2500 15.8%
    3000 18.3%
    3500 4.3%
    4000 9.3%
    4500 9.9%
    5000 9.8%
    5500 9.2%
    6000 7.3%
    6500 10.3%
    7000 7.4%
    7500 7.2%
    8000 7.4%



    OE:

    Click here to enlarge

    rpm % gain
    2500
    3000
    3500 12.0%
    4000 10.2%
    4500 10.3%
    5000 10.3%
    5500 10.3%
    6000 10.2%
    6500 10.5%
    7000 10.6%
    7500 10.3%
    8000 10.2%






    Click here to enlarge

    Last edited by spdu4ea; 03-25-2011 at 09:35 AM.

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    A similar thing was done a while back by a shop here in Atlanta. Perfectly extrapolated dyno, a customer busted them by getting a before and after of that shops before and after. He dyno'd pretty much the same and lost a little bit in some places. I have no comment about this you are bringing up though just reminded me.

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    I wouldn't exactly call that proof. It's a tuned file vs a tuned file not a base stock vs. tuned. That in itself is flawed for your comparison. The stock file tends to flatten out up top and the tuned files tend to zing upwards from 4000 on.

    I would like to learn how this cheating is done. I've watched them in person run these cars same strap same computer setting (not even touching the computer setting) from the baseline to the flashed/tuned run from the driver's seat of the car. I've even run their dyno 100% by myself while I was tuning over there. If there is some magic voodoo/koolaid that can be done from there with the start run/end run remote control I'd love to hear it.

    I'm sure Gintani would have no problem having someone come down to do runs of a before/after file and film it - document it. All their files that I've independently tested from X5, to 335is, to M3/M5 and beyond (on a 1.0 CF dynapack) acheived their advertised gains. That's why I've done business with them over the years.

    Here's some other runs that dispute your theory above:

    'cheating' a dynojet?

    Click here to enlarge

    'cheating' a stock tune?

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by BrenM3; 03-25-2011 at 10:48 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    I wouldn't exactly call that proof. It's a tuned file vs a tuned file not a base stock vs. tuned. That in itself is flawed for your comparison. The stock file tends to flatten out up top and the tuned files tend to zing upwards from 4000 on.
    True, it is tuned vs tuned so it isn't a perfect comparison, but a flat 10.x% increase is next to impossible.

    Here's some other runs that dispute your theory above:


    'cheating' a stock tune?

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...010/10/971.jpg
    First image didn't work for me, but I see no evidence of the same type of tampering on the 2nd one:


    speed % gain
    55 9.9%
    60 9.0%
    65 6.4%
    70 6.5%
    75 8.3%
    80 6.1%
    85 5.7%
    90 5.1%
    95 4.9%
    100 5.2%
    105 4.4%
    110 3.4%
    115 1.7%


    I'm not saying these tunes don't work, or that Gintani doesn't make power -- I'm saying that dyno they posted has been falsified.

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    "I know this tends to be a pro Gintani board, but this is proof of blatant tampering and is unacceptable..."

    "I'm sure Gintani would have no problem having someone come down to do runs of a before/after file and film it - document it. All their files that I've independently tested from X5, to 335is, to M3/M5 and beyond (on a 1.0 CF dynapack) acheived their advertised gains. That's why I've done business with them over the years. "

    I don't get it, are you saying they're cheating or not? If they achieve their advertised gains in independent dyno runs, then who cares what their graph says? Their tunes work then, not to be too critical just not sure where you're going with this. My car currently has no tune, but I am looking into them so some clarification would be nice.
    Click here to enlarge

    "2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity............and I'm not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein

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    Refresh the post, I fixed the first image. I still think the burden of proof is far beyond what's been presented for your to draw a conclusion here. I could take someones base file: Lean it out globally, add 2 degrees advance globally and keep a pretty consistent gain across the board.

    Be careful with your words: "They" didn't and never released any comparison to other tuner's graph. I'm sure they have a boatload of those on deck. Not "their" style. The customer posted it.

    I'd take Sal from Evolve's advice and run the dyno that way to prove it. Shootout mode.

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    So, I see 3 runs on that graph, 1 other, and 2 gintani, 1 other and one ginatini look alike, but how do you expalin the 3rd that is not alike? you have a % deviation of A and B, but not A and C..

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    Thanks, that further proves my point:

    rpm % gain
    2500
    3000
    3500 1.8%
    4000 4.6%
    4500 4.6%
    5000 5.0%
    5500 5.0%
    6000 4.5%
    6500 4.9%
    7000 4.8%
    7500 5.0%
    8000 4.8%


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    Refresh the post, I fixed the first image. I still think the burden of proof is far beyond what's been presented for your to draw a conclusion here. I could take someones base file: Lean it out globally, add 2 degrees advance globally and keep a pretty consistent gain across the board.
    It won't be. I mean in theory a stroker kit should just add a constant percentage across the board too -- but it doesn't.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by pjinca Click here to enlarge
    "I know this tends to be a pro Gintani board, but this is proof of blatant tampering and is unacceptable..."

    "I'm sure Gintani would have no problem having someone come down to do runs of a before/after file and film it - document it. All their files that I've independently tested from X5, to 335is, to M3/M5 and beyond (on a 1.0 CF dynapack) acheived their advertised gains. That's why I've done business with them over the years. "

    I don't get it, are you saying they're cheating or not? If they achieve their advertised gains in independent dyno runs, then who cares what their graph says? Their tunes work then, not to be too critical just not sure where you're going with this. My car currently has no tune, but I am looking into them so some clarification would be nice.
    You are replying to two different quotes from two different user's opinions.

    My opinion comes from 5 years of independent results 3,000+ miles away on a locked in hub dyno. If gains weren't as advertised I'd be out of business with a ton of chargebacks and would have dropped partnering making custom files with the developer years ago. And that has never been the case.

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    A stroker isn't a good example as it doesn't really effect peak hp as there is no headwork and doesn't apply to DME tuning.

    That further proves your point? So all these gains over the last say 3-4 years are fake? Pass the Koolaid.

    The beginning ramp up will be different from dyno to dyno, depending on where you start the run RPM wise and the ramp up. That data is irrelevant.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    Thanks, that further proves my point:

    rpm % gain
    2500
    3000
    3500 1.8%
    4000 4.6%
    4500 4.6%
    5000 5.0%
    5500 5.0%
    6000 4.5%
    6500 4.9%
    7000 4.8%
    7500 5.0%
    8000 4.8%




    It won't be. I mean in theory a stroker kit should just add a constant percentage across the board too -- but it doesn't.
    Last edited by BrenM3; 03-25-2011 at 12:31 PM.

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    too vague to be proof. need to go test this for accurate if any results of tampering IMHO
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    I'd love to learn how to manipulate results from never leaving the driver's seat on before and after runs (seriously).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    That further proves your point? So all these gains over the last say 3-4 years are fake? Pass the Koolaid.

    The beginning ramp up will be different from dyno to dyno, depending on where you start the run RPM wise and the ramp up. That data is irrelevant.
    Obviously they can make more power than stock, no one is questioning that. I am saying that there is some unethical manipulation going on at Gintani's dyno.

    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    I'd love to learn how to manipulate results from never leaving the driver's seat on before and after runs (seriously).
    Easy -- use a different gear

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge

    Easy -- use a different gear
    Nope.

    Do you understand how a dyno dynamics works/is setup?

    You have to set the ratio/speed at ramp up rpm - first to calculate. You would have to change the ratio to do that (which requires getting out of the car) and not have the graph all messed up or ending 500-1000rpms sooner or past redline. That method would completely be easy to spot.

    Also, That method you described only works on a dynojet. You might want to check those facts before you go on this crusade. It's far from air tight. I'm all ears if you can prove this. So far this is Michael Moore'd.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    Nope.

    Do you understand how a dyno dynamics works/is setup?

    You have to set the ratio/speed at ramp up rpm - first to calculate. You would have to change the ratio to do that (which requires getting out of the car) and not have the graph all messed up or ending 500-1000rpms sooner or past redline. That method would completely be easy to spot.

    Also, That method you described only works on a dynojet. You might want to check those facts before you go on this crusade. It's far from air tight. I'm all ears if you can prove this. So far this is Michael Moore'd.
    Here is that method illustrated on a dyno dynamics with a stock E9x M3 3rd (correct) vs 4th (reads high):

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    rpm % gain
    2500
    3000 9.1%
    3500 8.8%
    4000 6.0%
    4500 6.3%
    5000 6.4%
    5500 6.4%
    6000 6.5%
    6500 6.6%
    7000 6.5%
    7500 6.4%
    8000 6.1%

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Thanks for proving both my points thus far.

    Point #1: A 3rd to 4th trick the graphs wouldn't line up at all. Even in MPH or RPM mode. I knew this already. You'd have to go in and recalculate the ramp rpm/mph. One theory thrown out the window. Myth busted.

    Point #2: All the data present for dyno dynamics dynos shows the same consistent gain throughout the powerband (Evolve is 6% consistently just like the OE graphs on a dyno dynamics) Both runs started at different rpms that why you get the slightly different percentage bump at the beginning of the run - useless data to plot.

    The only other data you've shown has been on a different load bearing or roller dyno - of course all results will not be the same. (Which makes that chart you made utterly useless apples to oranges) I can do the same before and after on 3 different machine and get wildly different results.

    Spu - I know you're an intelligent member from previous posts, but I've yet to see any point to this.
    Last edited by BrenM3; 03-25-2011 at 03:01 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for proving both my points thus far.

    Point #1: A 3rd to 4th trick the graphs wouldn't line up at all. Even in MPH or RPM mode. I knew this already. You'd have to go in and recalculate the ramp rpm/mph. One theory thrown out the window. Myth busted.

    Point #2: All the data present for dyno dynamics dynos shows the same consistent gain throughout the powerband (Evolve is 6% consistently just like the OE graphs on a dyno dynamics) Both runs started at different rpms that why you get the slightly different percentage bump at the beginning of the run - useless data to plot.

    The only other data you've shown has been on a different load bearing or roller dyno - of course all results will not be the same. (Which makes the chart is utterly useless) I can do the same before and after on 3 different machine and get wildly different results.

    Spu - I know you're an intelligent member from previous posts, but I've yet to see any point to this.
    This

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for proving both my points thus far.

    Point #1: A 3rd to 4th trick the graphs wouldn't line up at all. Even in MPH or RPM mode. I knew this already. You'd have to go in and recalculate the ramp rpm/mph. One theory thrown out the window. Myth busted.
    The mph graph was just illustrating that those two runs were done on different gears. The rpm graph still lines up. Of course you could go in and adjust ramp rates to make it accurate, this is what happens when you don't.

    Point #2: All the data present for dyno dynamics dynos shows the same consistent gain throughout the powerband (Evolve is 6% consistently just like the OE graphs on a dyno dynamics) Both runs started at different rpms that why you get the slightly different percentage bump at the beginning of the run - useless data to plot.
    That flat 6% from Evolve was them showing the difference between 3rd and 4th gears on a stock M3 on dyno dynamics. The before & after tune/filter I calculated from Evolve varied from 18% to 4% in a reasonably random fashion (although they asked to be removed from the comparison since I used a stock graph they posted of one car to a tune+filter graph they posted at a later time of another car).

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    Not from my experience at all (which is fresh on my mind of doing this last week), If the speed is wrong for the gear chosen the graph will be all over the place for the end rpm value. Same thing happens on a dynapack when the wrong gear ratio is inputted. Do you have any evidence to illustrate this point?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    Obviously they can make more power than stock, no one is questioning that. I am saying that there is some unethical manipulation going on at Gintani's dyno.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...03/manip-1.jpg

    Easy -- use a different gear

    We all know the tune makes power, independent results have proved that so that isn't the question here.

    The question here is so-called "dyno-manipulation" which is a non-story and it isn't happening. I mean anyone can go get before or after dynos anywhere they like with their OE Tuning tune. What exactly do they have to hide?

    Where did this OE Tuning graph come from and whose car is it? Secondly, when was this done? Their dyno did has a software update at one point and I'm not sure if they changed their multiplier or not but the numbers did change.

    I don't see the "proof" here but let's analyze it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    The only other data you've shown has been on a different load bearing or roller dyno - of course all results will not be the same. (Which makes that chart you made utterly useless apples to oranges) I can do the same before and after on 3 different machine and get wildly different results.
    Exactly, the point of reference is a dyno that works in a completely different manner so personally I don't see how it is apples to apples.

    I don't know, I don't see solid proof.

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    ^
    There is long thread on m3post about this.

    Powerchip and PG are getting in on it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    Powerchip and PG are getting in on it.
    Well of course, Powerchip is trying to drag down Jeremy with them using anything they can for a while now and Robert continues his angry crusade to try to hurt them for whatever reason (mental instability?).

    PencilGeek is having a rough go right now with his parts being stolen and sold off (oops) and is looking to go after other people. I think it is time for us to quit biting our tongues and let's see how he is going to enjoy all his issues being revealed. Considering last time he went into hiding and it cost him his mod position yet he continues I don't think he quite learned his lesson. He should not be throwing stones, I'll tell you that.

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    I guess the big question is...............WHO CARES ??

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    edited
    Damn man, guess I'm missing the backstory here but Jason's posting has been respectful here.

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