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  1. #51
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    You have a competing vendor bashing the manifold in this thread, you have the original manufacturer dropping their prices to compete and you have HPF praising their latest product.

    I imagine there is minimal to no difference in performance. The cost of production is obviously higher on the two piece manifold. There is nothing wrong with a cast manifold, turbo companies have been using them for years. There is some truth to the fact that a solid flange can pose more problems over a unit that will allow expansion and contraction.

    I knew about this manifold weeks before it was announced as Chris showed it to me the last time I was at HPF. In simple terms, this manifold is cheaper to make and has less chance of leaking versus a solid flanged 2 piece unit. It was more a business decision than anything else. In business, the more ability you control over manufacturing the better.

    There is nothing to dramatize here. I imagine that Steed Speed lowered the price on their manifolds to simply move inventory. I highly doubt they will continue making them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Guessing that is a pretty nice piece as well?

    Seeing this manifold for $1k makes me more convinced than ever build your own setup is the way to go. Get the manifold, pick your turbo, use the factory intake manifold, get Pro-Efi, other necessary pieces, and enjoy.

    Hmmm who makes there intake mani? I would like to order a steed speed exhaust mani. a hpf intake manifold and stage 4 intercooler slap a motec and a 88mm and call it a day

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 600whp S4 Click here to enlarge
    Hmmm who makes there intake mani? I would like to order a steed speed exhaust mani. a hpf intake manifold and stage 4 intercooler slap a motec and a 88mm and call it a day
    Don't know but I don't think you can get that intake manifold separately.

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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    You have a competing vendor bashing the manifold in this thread,
    I don't believe AR Design makes a competing product for the S54.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Is it because it is cast that you feel there will be more resistance? Why do you feel the Steed Speed unit is a better piece that is more efficient?
    The CNC'd runners are a lot smoother, but that advantage can be easily negated by extrude honing. The main performance difference is in the way the exhaust paths merge into the existing stream.

    What the Steedspeed's exhaust path looks like:
    Click here to enlarge

    HPF's again:
    Click here to enlarge

    Notice the differences in how the exhaust path of ports 2, 4, and 5 enters the main exhaust stream. With SS, the exhaust has all pretty much already turned into the correct direction. With the HPF cast, 2, 4, and 5 are merging almost 90* to flow. That will cause a restriction which the engine will have to work a little harder to pump through. Obviously with a turbocharged engine, you can just raise the boost a little and regain that power so it is just a difference in efficiency.

    On the HPF plus side, you can fit larger turbos on the new manifold. Still, I don't think there will be much point in going larger than the T76 unless someone was only interested in dyno queen status or drag/mile racing (even Chris downgraded to stage 3 when he started tracking).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    You have a competing vendor bashing the manifold in this thread, you have the original manufacturer dropping their prices to compete and you have HPF praising their latest product.

    I imagine there is minimal to no difference in performance. The cost of production is obviously higher on the two piece manifold. There is nothing wrong with a cast manifold, turbo companies have been using them for years. There is some truth to the fact that a solid flange can pose more problems over a unit that will allow expansion and contraction.

    I knew about this manifold weeks before it was announced as Chris showed it to me the last time I was at HPF. In simple terms, this manifold is cheaper to make and has less chance of leaking versus a solid flanged 2 piece unit. It was more a business decision than anything else. In business, the more ability you control over manufacturing the better.

    There is nothing to dramatize here. I imagine that Steed Speed lowered the price on their manifolds to simply move inventory. I highly doubt they will continue making them.
    As usual, very good points (I must spread rep again before giving it to you Click here to enlarge ). And there is probably an opportunity here for Steedspeed to make a design tweak here and there for even better sealing. I just think this is a change that largely benefits HPF
    Last edited by spdu4ea; 03-25-2011 at 05:19 AM.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    The CNC'd runners are a lot smoother, but that advantage can be easily negated by extrude honing. The main performance difference is in the way the exhaust paths merge into the existing stream.

    What the Steedspeed's exhaust path looks like:
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...largeJPG-1.jpg

    HPF's again:
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...anifold3-1.jpg

    Notice the differences in how the exhaust path of ports 2, 4, and 5 enters the main exhaust stream. With SS, the exhaust has all pretty much already turned into the correct direction. With the HPF cast, 2, 4, and 5 are merging almost 90* to flow. That will cause a restriction which the engine will have to work a little harder to pump through. Obviously with a turbocharged engine, you can just raise the boost a little and regain that power so it is just a difference of efficiency.

    On the HPF plus side, you can fit larger turbos are the new manifold. Still, I don't think there will be much point in going larger than the T76 unless someone was only interested in dyno queen status or drag/mile racing (even Chris downgraded to stage 3 when he started tracking).
    Very nice post, illustrates your point quite well.

    Call me crazy but I wonder if this new HPF manifold is because HPF sees the market is likely to evolve to more people purchasing turbo parts rather than just complete kits and they wish to get in on that. I doubt they anticipated such a large drop from Steed Speed.

    The S54 market is slowly but surely evolving in a manner that mirrors the S52/M52 market in which many people buy the parts rather than just off the shelf kits.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Don't know but I don't think you can get that intake manifold separately.
    You can, O2pruv's has it on his custom build in Aus, as does Mike Essa in his upcoming formula D build. It's $1100 direct from HPF: http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/part...luminium/14107

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    You can, O2pruv's has it on his custom build in Aus, as does Mike Essa in his upcoming formula D build. It's $1100 direct from HPF: http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/part...luminium/14107
    Good stuff!

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Don't know but I don't think you can get that intake manifold separately.
    Thought I heard something from Chris saying he was going to start selling parts individually after figuring out the pricing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    Thought I heard something from Chris saying he was going to start selling parts individually after figuring out the pricing.
    Makes sense, to stay competitive they have to.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Makes sense, to stay competitive they have to.
    Definitely sounds like the options will be opening up soon.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    Definitely sounds like the options will be opening up soon.
    I really like that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I really like that.
    Yeah, me too. Competition is good.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    You have a competing vendor bashing the manifold in this thread, you have the original manufacturer dropping their prices to compete and you have HPF praising their latest product.

    I imagine there is minimal to no difference in performance. The cost of production is obviously higher on the two piece manifold. There is nothing wrong with a cast manifold, turbo companies have been using them for years. There is some truth to the fact that a solid flange can pose more problems over a unit that will allow expansion and contraction.

    I knew about this manifold weeks before it was announced as Chris showed it to me the last time I was at HPF. In simple terms, this manifold is cheaper to make and has less chance of leaking versus a solid flanged 2 piece unit. It was more a business decision than anything else. In business, the more ability you control over manufacturing the better.

    There is nothing to dramatize here. I imagine that Steed Speed lowered the price on their manifolds to simply move inventory. I highly doubt they will continue making them.
    We do not compete with HPF. And there was no bashing, simply stating facts.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ar design Click here to enlarge
    We do not compete with HPF. And there was no bashing, simply stating facts.
    Facts? What facts? Have you run independent tests? Have you compared dyno results using a baseline? Are you an expert in metallurgy? Are you not a competing vendor if you are making products for the N54 platform, or selling parts for BMW in general? Saying it's not better because that is your opinion is not fact. I'm sorry to say.. but opinions are like... they are not facts. If your complaint is with their marketing strategy boohoo.. Vendor to vendor bashing is so unprofessional.

    Does your signature not state..

    powering some of the world's quickest and fastest N54s | home of the world's most powerful n54 530whp/550wtq @20psi

    You are talking to a professional marketing executive. I think we are all aware that HPF has interest in competing in that market.

    P.S. I emailed you guys awhile back about your line lock and never got a response. If you want customers you should answer your emails Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by ccsykes; 03-25-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Vendor to vendor bashing is so unprofessional.
    member to vendor bashing is professional ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    member to vendor bashing is professional ?
    Seriously? I could care less what you think of me because I'm not selling you anything. As a potential customer, I'm turned off seeing a vendor whine on a public forum. That goes for any vendor, including HPF.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Seriously? I could care less what you think of me because I'm not selling you anything. As a potential customer, I'm turned off seeing a vendor whine on a public forum. That goes for any vendor, including HPF.
    Can we label you vendor defendor? Can you provide the forum with data supporting that the cast mani is better?
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  19. #69
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Facts? What facts? Have you run independent tests? Have you compared dyno results using a baseline? Are you an expert in metallurgy? Are you not a competing vendor if you are making products for the N54 platform, or selling parts for BMW in general? Saying it's not better because that is your opinion is not fact. I'm sorry to say.. but opinions are like... they are not facts. If your complaint is with their marketing strategy boohoo.. Vendor to vendor bashing is so unprofessional.

    Does your signature not state..

    powering some of the world's quickest and fastest N54s | home of the world's most powerful n54 530whp/550wtq @20psi

    You are talking to a professional marketing executive. I think we are all aware that HPF has interest in competing in that market.

    P.S. I emailed you guys awhile back about your line lock and never got a response. If you want customers you should answer your emails Click here to enlarge
    I made three claims/statements/etc:

    1. I questioned the claim that a *sand cast* manifold could be made with more accuracy than a billet manifold machined on a CNC mill that, at worst, can hold +/- .001. If you can find someone that can hold a better tolerance with a sand casting, my hats off to you.
    2. Unburn fuel igniting in the exhaust manifold will destroy a turbine wheel before it cooks bearings from shockloading.
    3. The pics of the sand casting clearly show imperfections inside the runners. The CNC runners do not have these flaws, hence they will have less turbulence.

    Feel free to refute.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Seriously? I could care less what you think of me because I'm not selling you anything.
    you know i have nothing to say about this , tried to atleast sound like a nice guy but with you being nice is the last thing i should do. and what makes you think just because you are a "potential customer" you can jump in a thread and bashing ?
    back on topic ,just because you are a HPF customer it doesn't mean others should shut their mouths and don't question HPF.
    1. I questioned the claim that a *sand cast* manifold could be made with more accuracy than a billet manifold machined on a CNC mill that, at worst, can hold +/- .001. If you can find someone that can hold a better tolerance with a sand casting, my hats off to you.
    2. Unburn fuel igniting in the exhaust manifold will destroy a turbine wheel before it cooks bearings from shockloading.
    3. The pics of the sand casting clearly show imperfections inside the runners. The CNC runners do not have these flaws, hence they will have less turbulence.
    i'm not a real expert but these make sense to me , not sure about you.
    Last edited by Sorena; 03-25-2011 at 12:52 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    you know i have nothing to say about this , tried to atleast sound like a nice guy but with you being nice is the last thing i should do. and what makes you think just because you are a "potential customer" you can jump in a thread and bashing ?
    back on topic ,just because you are a HPF customer it doesn't mean others should shut their mouths and don't question HPF.

    i'm not a real expert but these make sense to me , not sure about you.
    Correct all great and very valid points. AR design is just stating what is easy to see/understand. A lot of the times when common sense questions are asked about HPF many on the HPF band wagon start with the name calling, and ooo they are hating. That really needs to stop. Its getting old.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    it needs some research , but it's my lazy time so i trust your word. so what happens in the real world?
    ...see below

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    At low loads (out of boost) the pressure inside the exhaust manifold will fluctuate between vacuum and boost as exhaust pulses pass by. The temporary vacuum can pull in air which can ignite an overly rich mixture if the temps are high enough. The thing is, there shouldn't be an overly rich mixture at low loads (unless you have something like a MAF-based system combined with an uncorrected blow-off valve venting to atmosphere).


    Back to the new cast manifolds -- Chris says the new ones are made in the USA which is definitely something to appreciate. I don't think they should give up much in flow compared to steed speed (nothing another .5-1psi couldn't fix) and I bet the flow difference would be negligible after extrude honing or otherwise smoothing out the inside. Hanging less weight off the exhaust studs is also a plus.

    Still, I'd like to see how they hold up after a few years and I see absolutely no reason for any existing customers to switch from the CNC to cast.
    Actually back pressure ahead of the turbo is 1 - 3 times that of the intake manifold. We have a in question a motor with variable camshafts with good LSA control - there is VERY low vacuum in a manifold on our cars. These cars experience practically no overlap so the intake stroke definitely does not pose an issue out the exhaust valve. And, as you mentioned, it should not have enough fuel coming out to ignite. Even 10:1 mixtures are not fat enough to ignite in the turbine with air present. Typical BS from Chris who thinks he's talking to idiots.

    The new manifold sucks. Its not investment cast. Its very porous as you can see through the ceramic coating - I would venture to say that if anyone saw it without the ceramic they'd be turned off. Thing M50 OBD1 manifolds. The part about heat expansion and snapping studs... sigh. Is it that they intentionally made the holes spaced or is...there...maaaaybe some manufacturing variance Click here to enlarge Also - the transition out of the head and down into the collector looks severe. I think significant performance will be lost and I will be interested to see the dyno'd they turn out with these. Though, I fully anticipate "look guys no loss!" and some dyno work.


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    0 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes
    You are talking to a professional marketing executive.
    Marketing executive with neon green M3... thank god you have people working under you making decisions :rofl


  24. #74
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    dyno magic/magical dynos are awesome. I heard they run grounded dragon loins
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    Can we label you vendor defendor? Can you provide the forum with data supporting that the cast mani is better?
    Did I ever say it was better performance wise? Did I ever make claims as to something being factual? There are Pro's and Cons to each manifold. I would imagine there is a slight restriction in the cast manifold versus the two peice. However the cast piece is going to provide better sealing. The difference between the two manifolds is negligible in my opinion.

    As for me being a "vendor defendor" I hope your not insinuating that I am in some way a fan boy because my history proves I am anything but. I just tell it like I see it. I'm not the one who has bias here like many others seem too.

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