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    Talking Procede Progressive Nitrous control

    Did this last night.

    Running MS109 fuel, I started off with a modified Stg 1 map which made ~375whp on our 6MT test car. I did not start off with the usual Stg 3+ map that makes considerably more power. The idea behind running nitrous, as I see it, was to not have to squeeze out max power from the turbos. So the results below are no means a max power tune. The only thing the runs share in common is realative boost pressure (peak 12-13psi).

    Throughout the course of the night, tested different jet sizes (starting with .18 and ending with .32 with many sizes along the way) and progressive control strategies. This involves different solenoid frequency/duration during nitrous onset to smoothen the transition when nitrous engages. As well as how and when (with respect to RPM), the nitrous disables. You can see the progress below:

    Click here to enlarge

    For the time being, I'm kept the activation RPM to 4000rpm. But this can be lowered a bit to 3000rpm or so. In the end, we ended up making an additional ~90whp while still keeping the turbos from working too hard. I did notice that the engine was far more responsive to increases in nozzle size at moderate power levels. Above 450whp, the incrmental gains became harder to come by. Yes, it is possible to make another 20-30whp by simply using a larger nozzle but it would take considerably more nitrous to do it. It would appear that the bottleneck is in the exhaust side. And the only thing there are the turbine housings which, understandably, aren't suited to flow 550+bhp worth of exhaust flow.

    But the cool part is not how much power it picked up, but how it picked it up and what safety precautions we have in place to keep everything running safely. And after that, we'll see how it did on the track when subjected to gear changes and various rates of RPM rise. Coming up next...
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Nitrous has a bad reputation. And it somewhat undeserved. Nitrous itself isn't the dangerous monster that many think it is. Engine damage froms sheer power loads are rare. Instead, the troublemaker is almost always caused by the nitrous control system and supporting tune.

    Nitrous is nothing more than a compressed oxygen-rich liquid that is crammed into a high pressure tank and routed to the engine. The gateway device that keeps the nitrous from being injected into the engine is a large solenoid. This solenoid is controlled by either a computer/controller (at best) or a simple full throttle switch that you instead under your gas pedal (at absolute worse).

    Once the nitrous is released into the engine, it quickly turns into gas and under goes a chemical reaction where the oxygen frees from the nitrogen. The nitrogen acts a buffer gas to slow down the process as well as to absorb heat. The oxygen gets burned and turns into power. The end result is a more powerful bang and a reduction in intake charge temps through heat robbed from change of state from liquid to gas. This is not to be mistaken for a reduction in cylinder temps which is largely proportional with power output. These temps are high. And can get VERY high (like engine melting high) when nitrous is used for too long (heat builds up) or when no mixed with the correction proportion of fuel. Or when run with insufficient octane or with excessive ignition timing. The margin for safety is also considerably small with only a few things keeping a safe running engine from becoming a broken engine.

    Typical rules of thumb when running nitrous:

    -DO NOT to rely on the knock sensor. Because by the time the DME detects and retards timing, engine damage can already be induced. This means your ignition timing map should be proactive when it comes to avoiding knock. Not reactive.

    -DO Run high octane fuel for larger nitrous induced power gains. If you are running a small shot that only picks up 15-30whp, octane isn't as critical as the reduction in charge temp goes a long way in reducing knock tendancy. Similar to installing an upgraded intercooler. For larger power gains, running race gas is cheap insurance.

    -DO Keep AFR rich. Especially torwards the end of the run as this is where in-cylinder temps are the hottest. This is because heat is accumulated quicker than it is shed.

    -DO NOT engine nitrous for more than 10 seconds at a time. This means nitrous is NOT a suitable power adder for those who are running the Texas mile or doing a top speed run on the Autobahn.

    -DO NOT engine nitrous when the engine is cold. Engine needs to be fully up to temp with all tolerances within their optimal ranges. Or else excessive wear can occur.

    -DO NOT spray nitrous when the throttle is closed or else it will back up and create a very o2 rich condition when the throttle opens up again. This can cause a lean run condition which is a no-no.

    -DO NOT spray nitrous until AFR is stabilized. This is especially important when running a dry shot (ie, spraying nitrous alone and not a nitrous/fuel mixture). Spraying nitrous on an already lean-running engine will make it run even leaner. Even if it's just for a very short period of time (until the DME adjusts fuel trims). This may only take a fraction of a second. But for an engine that is spinning at 4000rpm (nearly 70 rotations per second), that is a painful eternity.

    -DO NOT engine nitrous at a low engine speed as this can cause a situation where too much nitrous is sprayed onto an engine that isn't consuming air quickly enough. This can cause a nitrous backfire will, as we learned in Fast and the Furious, can blow your manifold off. As well as your diamond plated floorboard. From what I've heard at least.

    -DO retard timing during the onset of nitrous. This will soften the initial torque impact as well greatly reduce the tendancy for the engine to knock during that engagement moment.

    -DO flutter the solenoid during nitrous engagement. This will also soften the impact of the nitrous and give a little bit more time for the fuel system (which isn't pressurized to 1000psi like the nitrous bottle) to catch up.

    -DO NOT engage nitrous while your 6AT is shifting. This will destroy your torque converter and result in shifting problems. Just ask Hotrod about his torque converter and overrev codes.

    There is no one single control system that is capable of satisfying all these conditions. Until now. So here is the logic we've whipped up to make sure nitrous is engined only when its safe. And disengaged immediately when conditions aren't safe.

    Befoe we go any further, I should state that the nitrous spray is not exactly triggered by the Procede. It is triggered by a button that you can mount anywhere. I put it on my steering wheel. The Procede enables the functionality of the trigger button. So that it only works when conditions are good. This also means that the user can simply keep the button pressed, drive the car, and let the Procede turn on/off the nitrous as the engine transitions from different conditions.

    So, the Procede, which fortunately can read heaps of CAN data, will only allow the nitrous trigger to arm when:

    - Engine is within the allowable operating CAN oil temp range (170F to 250F).
    - Applied throttle is 100%
    - Actual CAN throttle is over 75%. This means that the nitrous will flicker off when the actual throttle closes due to boost targetting or traction control intervention. Just triggering off of applied throttle is useless since it does not always reflace actual throttle.
    - Methanol must be flowing at least 500ml/min (also read by the Procede)
    - AFR must be richer than ~12.5:1
    - Boost must be over 10psi (so that it doesn't trigger early during spool-up and create an overboost condition).
    - The car is in a gear and NOT in the middle of a gearchange condition. Through CAN data, it detects this regardless of whether you shift at redline or at 4000rpm.
    - CAN Ignition advance must be below 14 degrees of timing. This is to avoid engaging nitrous while the DME is in the middle of a calculated load transition. This means the DME doesn't have to react to the knock when it is avoided in the first place.

    When ALL these conditions are met, ONLY then will the nitrous trigger be armed. And when arming is combined with the user input (button pressed) the nitrous will spray. Either all at once, or gradually over the next .5-1 second depending on what you want and how big of jet you are running.


    Next up: How we control the fueling side of the equation Click here to enlarge
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  3. #3
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    Excellent, high quality stuff! Thanks for posting this here, why didn't Shiv Click here to enlarge

    I took the quotes off the first post as I want to promote it as news, thanks!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Excellent, high quality stuff! Thanks for posting this here, why didn't Shiv Click here to enlarge

    I took the quotes off the first post as I want to promote it as news, thanks!
    no prob. I probably just beat him to punch.

    :music-deathmetal:
    Click here to enlarge

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    You guys are too fast. You'd think that you're already running nitrous Click here to enlarge

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    Dang, so how may people are running nitrous on their n54 motors?? It seem to be almost a "common place" now.


    BTW, very nice numbers OP.
    This is my signature... Click here to enlarge

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    Damn nice!

    A bit off topic, but what do you think is the reliability of our motors with that setup? Obviously not spraying everyday, but every once in a while...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dark Phantom Click here to enlarge
    Damn nice!

    A bit off topic, but what do you think is the reliability of our motors with that setup? Obviously not spraying everyday, but every once in a while...
    By the looks of everything thus far.. nothing to be concerned about, should hold up just fine.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dark Phantom Click here to enlarge
    Damn nice!

    A bit off topic, but what do you think is the reliability of our motors with that setup? Obviously not spraying everyday, but every once in a while...
    Assuming the integration is well done the only real problem is going to be drivetrain related IMHO. Once we find some colder plugs I'll have even more confidence in the motor.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dark Phantom Click here to enlarge
    Damn nice!

    A bit off topic, but what do you think is the reliability of our motors with that setup? Obviously not spraying everyday, but every once in a while...
    I think it's a viably reliable alternative IF you retard timing once nitrous is active. If this can't be done, nitrous is far less appealing as a power adder. And high octane (race gas) requirements are going to be strict.

    Shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I think it's a viably reliable alternative IF you retard timing once nitrous is active. If this can't be done, nitrous is far less appealing as a power adder. And high octane (race gas) requirements are going to be strict.

    Shiv
    What if you ran a wet shot? You wouldn't need to retard timing then, right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I think it's a viably reliable alternative IF you retard timing once nitrous is active. If this can't be done, nitrous is far less appealing as a power adder. And high octane (race gas) requirements are going to be strict.

    Shiv
    From my perspective race gas + meth will definitely be a requirement. Especially on the stock heat range plugs. If a user is going to spend ~$5 per 1/4 mile run in nitrous they can afford the race gas. Interestingly with proper fueling I've seen timing maxed out and stable on 93 + meth (M7) on a .28 jet @ 14-15psi. Although not suggested.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    From my perspective race gas + meth will definitely be a requirement. Especially on the stock heat range plugs. If a user is going to spend ~$5 per 1/4 mile run in nitrous they can afford the race gas. Interestingly with proper fueling I've seen timing maxed out and stable on 93 + meth (M7) on a .28 jet @ 14-15psi. Although not suggested.
    Your perspective is from using a tuning device (jb3) that has no ability to provide timing retard. So you couldn't follow normal nitrous tuning methodology even if you wanted to. If I was faced with the same limitation, I would be very nervous as well. As for maxed out timing with just 93oct and meth, you might want to actually test nitrous on your car and see if that is the case. I think you'll change your mind once you actually test it yourself.

    Shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Your perspective is from using a tuning device (jb3) that has no ability to provide timing retard. So you couldn't follow normal nitrous tuning methodology even if you wanted to. If I was faced with the same limitation, I would be very nervous as well. As for maxed out timing with just 93oct and meth, you might want to actually test nitrous on your car and see if that is the case. I think you'll change your mind once you actually test it yourself.

    Shiv
    Wait, hold on, the JB3 can't adjust timing?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Wait, hold on, the JB3 can't adjust timing?
    Nope. It relies on the factory DME's knock control system to trim ignition advance.

    Shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Nope. It relies on the factory DME's knock control system to trim ignition advance.

    Shiv
    I see... but with a small dry shot it seems the factory DME is compensating exactly as it should, correct?

    I do see why one would want to run race gas though when spraying.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I see... but with a small dry shot it seems the factory DME is compensating exactly as it should, correct?

    I do see why one would want to run race gas though when spraying.
    Unfortunately, a small "30hp" shot ends up making 70whp on an n54 running at 15psi. So there is always going to be a benefit to retarding ignition timing the moment nitrous activates. Especially when running a dry shot since it does take a finite amount of time for the DME to extend injector PW to compensate for the momentary lean condition. The DME can't predict the future so it can only react to the NOS-induced lean condition. It does this very quickly (within a second). But that is still an eternity when the engine is spinning at 5000rpm. Historically, people have gotten away with less-than-ideal tuning because they are running race gas along with meth/h20 injection. But I still think they are pushing their luck. But i've been known to be conservative.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Unfortunately, a small "30hp" shot ends up making 70whp on an n54 running at 15psi. So there is always going to be a benefit to retarding ignition timing the moment nitrous activates. Especially when running a dry shot since it does take a finite amount of time for the DME to extend injector PW to compensate for the momentary lean condition. The DME can't predict the future so it can only react to the NOS-induced lean condition. It does this very quickly (within a second). But that is still an eternity when the engine is spinning at 5000rpm. Historically, people have gotten away with less-than-ideal tuning because they are running race gas along with meth/h20 injection. But I still think they are pushing their luck. But i've been known to be conservative.
    Well, retarding the timing would give you an extra safety net especially on marginal fuel but it would also kill some power. How much? I don't know exactly.

    Yep, these "small" shots are making some big power when combined with the N54 and turbos for whatever reasons. I was under the impression the DME adjusted very quickly on the fly? So, since it does adjust within well less than a second is there really any danger? I see what you mean about the adjustment at high RPM but we haven't seen any issues so far and the AFR's have been rich.

    You do raise some very interesting points but I would probably be more concerned with the timing if upping the dry the shot beyond what we have seen so far.

    So, it seems you feel the Procede is a more conservative setup and you are able to adjust the timing, correct?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well, retarding the timing would give you an extra safety net especially on marginal fuel but it would also kill some power. How much? I don't know exactly.

    Yep, these "small" shots are making some big power when combined with the N54 and turbos for whatever reasons. I was under the impression the DME adjusted very quickly on the fly? So, since it does adjust within well less than a second is there really any danger? I see what you mean about the adjustment at high RPM but we haven't seen any issues so far and the AFR's have been rich.

    You do raise some very interesting points but I would probably be more concerned with the timing if upping the dry the shot beyond what we have seen so far.

    So, it seems you feel the Procede is a more conservative setup and you are able to adjust the timing, correct?

    At 5000rpm, there are 80 engine events every second. So a second's worth of learn-run/over-advance is pretty sketchy. And easily engine-ending if something goes wrong. Add 15psi of boost and a shot of nitrous and you are making close to 5000ft-lbs of torque at that RPM. And running the same ignition advance (assuming race gas and meth) as you would be as if you were running stock at 7psi at just 250lbft of output. In the case of the MSD80/81, this is 10.5 deg of advance. The troublesome thing about tuning at high power loads, with high octane, is that you often find ourself over-advanced. By which i mean running excessive timing for what you need to make maximum torque. In such a case, retarding 1-2 degrees not only cools the cylinder temp and reduces peak cylinder pressure, it also greatly lesses the chance of knock. All the while not effecting power output one bit. So it's a win/win situation in every respect. Typical run of thumb is that you can/should retard 1-2 degrees of timing for every 40-50hp you make on nitrous. Of course, that usually assumes running on pump gas. But it also assumes that you have a naturally aspirated engine that is only pushing around 80hp/liter. Not a n54 already at 130hp/liter.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Wait, hold on, the JB3 can't adjust timing?
    Actually none of the piggybacks control timing. You'd need a flash tune or direct coil control to block the ECU from putting the timing you just offset via CPS right back in. Interestingly enough in most pump gas comparisons (where timing is critical) the JB3 has performed stronger than the other tunes offering CPS offsetting. And we know where it stands on race gas/meth.

    But it's funny to hear tuners preach about safety first given their shaky track record on the subject. Like the PROcede V2 that was known to often decide to run 20psi boost and took out a couple motors. More important than actual safety to them is the illusion of safety. Which is why CPS offsetting fits with their marketing concept perfectly. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Nope. It relies on the factory DME's knock control system to trim ignition advance.

    Shiv
    quick question, How does yours differ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Actually none of the piggybacks control timing. You'd need a flash tune or direct coil control to block the ECU from putting the timing you just offset via CPS right back in. Interestingly enough in most pump gas comparisons (where timing is critical) the JB3 has performed stronger than the other tunes offering CPS offsetting. And we know where it stands on race gas/meth.

    But it's funny to hear tuners preach about safety first given their shaky track record on the subject. Like the PROcede V2 that was known to often decide to run 20psi boost and took out a couple motors. More important than actual safety to them is the illusion of safety. Which is why CPS offsetting fits with their marketing concept perfectly. Click here to enlarge
    It still seems that you don't understand how CPS offsetting works. What it does is limits the maximum advance the ECU tries to achieve. If you only want the DME to target 5 deg of advance in stead of say 7 degrees of advance, you apply a -2 deg offset. Of courses, if either of these targets are beyond the knock threshold, neither will be achieved. I really have a hard time believing that you don't understand this. But rather you keep up this charade just so others, who truly don't understand this concept, feel better about their tune and blindly repeat your mantra (see post above).

    As for engine failures, I'd like to know more. However, based upon your $#@! and leave scare tactics, I don't think I'm going to.

    Back to subject, install nitrous on your engine if you are comfortable with controlling it with a boost controller. Until then, pollute some other thread with your nonsense. And yes, your nonsense has become pretty outlandish as of late. Must have something to do with the classifieds section.

    Shiv

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    :popcorn:
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

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    Shiv, i thought you were against using Nitrous, What caused the shift? Thank you

    Steven

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Shiv, i thought you were against using Nitrous, What caused the shift? Thank you

    Steven
    A few customers demanded it. And we had the hardware/functionality to do it right. And it was a fun little challenge.

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