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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Which is what the stock DME does on the BMW turbo motors.
    Yes but the problem is sticky you have to remember that the DME doesn't know it is operating above stock boost levels. So as boost increases past stock levels the stock DME does not do that on BMW turbo motors. It does it in response to eventual knock but that is not ideal and the DME doesn't know why its knocking it just has a standard protocol to follow in response.

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    You are correct and that is why as boost is increased timing needs to be retarded. So to summarize an engine at a given RPM will need to retard timing as boost increases.
    So retarding timing does not always result in a loss of power, correct? Obviously you still want to retard the timing as little as possible as load increases. However, if the A/F mix is going to burn faster due to increased load, you are still going to be able to use up all of the available mix when timing is reduced. Last question, thanks for clarifying everything guys. I have been reading a few books on tuning and 4 stroke engines in general, but they were for N/A, which is much different.
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  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    So retarding timing does not always result in a loss of power, correct? Obviously you still want to retard the timing as little as possible as load increases. However, if the A/F mix is going to burn faster due to increased load, you are still going to be able to use up all of the available mix when timing is reduced. Last question, thanks for clarifying everything guys. I have been reading a few books on tuning and 4 stroke engines in general, but they were for N/A, which is much different.
    Actually yes retarding timing does result in lower power VS running those exact same conditions with more advanced timing. Timing is retarded as a necessary action to ensure the safe and long term operation of the engine. The ideal way to do this would be to sit on the dyno and go load cell by load cell increasing the timing until knock occured and then pulling it back slightly. Maximum engine output is produced usually before it goes bang! Reading all you can is a brilliant way to learn and I would look at efi101.com expensive but badass.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Actually yes retarding timing does result in lower power VS running those exact same conditions with more advanced timing. Timing is retarded as a necessary action to ensure the safe and long term operation of the engine. The ideal way to do this would be to sit on the dyno and go load cell by load cell increasing the timing until knock occured and then pulling it back slightly. Maximum engine output is produced usually before it goes bang! Reading all you can is a brilliant way to learn and I would look at efi101.com expensive but badass.
    Okay, thanks!

    Terry, do you have any suggestions on books to read? Im sure you have read quite a few.
    Last edited by Forcefed; 03-22-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Yes but the problem is sticky you have to remember that the DME doesn't know it is operating above stock boost levels. So as boost increases past stock levels the stock DME does not do that on BMW turbo motors. It does it in response to eventual knock but that is not ideal and the DME doesn't know why its knocking it just has a standard protocol to follow in response.
    I don't think it has been established that the DME is not capable of adjusting to higher boost levels. What is more important seems to be that all the DME failsafes and safeties are in place and undisturbed.

    It can knock on stock boost technically say for a batch of bad gas. The DME responds to knock in virtually milliseconds and that is at stock boost so I don't see why it is not ideal, it is how it is designed.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    Okay, thanks!

    Terry, do you have any suggestions on books to read? Im sure you have read quite a few.
    There are also classes you can take: http://www.audiboost.com/showthread....-at-some-point
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is the main question. Safety as stated so far is an illusion, a marketing ploy. How simple is it to tell people pulling timing is safer? Now how about if you tell them you are pulling ignition timing at the expense of cam timing? And how about if you go even further and state it is as the expense of knock control? Is it a clear issue now or muddied? How do we balance which is safer? Well, most tuners would say the safest thing to do would be to allow the DME to handle what it was designed to handle in the manner it was programmed to.
    I agree with this 100%, but would add that its actually worse than a mere illusion or marketing ploy.

    The fact is that the procede more than completely negates the minutia amount of theoretical safety that the tune is attempting to gain. At the hopes of gaining this so-far-nonexistent safety, procede users are subjecting their engines to a tune that constantly shows problems (i.e. needing parts changed out at 1/2 life to avoid misfires) and causes real safety concerns that are significant enough for the computer to more frequently cause limp mode than any other tune I've seen.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Really? Click here to enlarge
    The fact is that the procede more than completely negates the minutia amount of theoretical safety that the tune is attempting to gain.
    This is what I am wondering as well but don't know if it is proven. I don't know how to decide if pulling ignition timing while interfering with the VANOS may be safer in certain situations or may just be negating what it is trying to accomplish. Difficult to really tally that up.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Really? Click here to enlarge
    procede users are subjecting their engines to a tune that constantly shows problems (i.e. needing parts changed out at 1/2 life to avoid misfires) and causes real safety concerns that are significant enough for the computer to more frequently cause limp mode than any other tune I've seen.
    The limp mode part I understand but what about the changing of parts? What are you referring to exactly?
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    It is strange that the new beta maps "completely revise" the CPS system and "improve resolution 800%". Too lazy to look it up but I think the procede runs @ 50mhz. So with no prescaler you have 50,000,000 clock cycles per second. At say 7500 rpm that would be around 3333 ticks per edge. That is the highest theoretical resolution possible. So to improve resolution 800% they would have to have been running a 8x prescaler on that giving only 416 ticks @ 7500rpm. Barely enough to run properly. I doubt Adrian would leave a prescaler in there like that "just for kicks". Especially given he has plenty of 32bit timers available.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't think it has been established that the DME is not capable of adjusting to higher boost levels. What is more important seems to be that all the DME failsafes and safeties are in place and undisturbed.

    It can knock on stock boost technically say for a batch of bad gas. The DME responds to knock in virtually milliseconds and that is at stock boost so I don't see why it is not ideal, it is how it is designed.
    The answers you seek are in your questions. "It has not been proven the dme cannot adapt to higher boost" how could it adapt to higher boost when it never has knowingly been at higher than stock boost? As I've said many times before on here I may always be wrong but I'd love for someone to tell me how the dme can "learn" or adapt the long term trim to run 15psi(just throwing out a higher than stock boost) when it has never known it was at that level to begin with?? I just don't find that credible and although I've heard a respected tuner on here saying so I don't get it yet. "It can knock on stock boost technically say for a batch of bad gas. The DME responds to knock in virtually milliseconds and that is at stock boost so I don't see why it is not ideal, it is how it is designed" your right it can knock on stock boost but only as you say due to bad gas or some other incorrect variable in engine operation not as standard policy to run full timing as boost increases and to pull back only when knock occurs. The engine is tuned to never knock during correct and normal conditions because although you have stated and I'm sure it's the case while the knock correction maybe good no way BMW would release an engine that pulls timing only in response to knock and uses no ignition maps what so ever. Terry and other piggy companies are doing it out of necessity not because letting it knock before adjusting timing is the right way to go. Put it another way Terry if you could control timing(not cps which I know you don't like) I mean real timing as part of your tune would you still allow full timing and let the knock sensor do the tuning? Or would you try to retard timing in response to increased boost as it is done on every other tune that has timing control? I hope no one takes this as an attack on these types of tunes as I simply view it as an existing drawback which must be acknowledged and worked past to create a more perfect system. I view cps as an attempt toward that and while it is no where near real control I certainly would rather have it than not.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    The answers you seek are in your questions. "It has not been proven the dme cannot adapt to higher boost" how could it adapt to higher boost when it never has knowingly been at higher than stock boost?
    Not sure if you know this, but the car by default will add more boost in elevation and automatically adapt. So, it does see higher than "stock" boost in stock form.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    As I've said many times before on here I may always be wrong but I'd love for someone to tell me how the dme can "learn" or adapt the long term trim to run 15psi(just throwing out a higher than stock boost) when it has never known it was at that level to begin with??
    Because it is designed as an adaptive system. How wide the range for adjustment is hasn't really been defined but it has worked well with up to 20 psi thus far. That is a pretty good trial run to prove it's capability I would think.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    our right it can knock on stock boost but only as you say due to bad gas or some other incorrect variable in engine operation not as standard policy to run full timing as boost increases and to pull back only when knock occurs. The engine is tuned to never knock during correct and normal conditions because although you have stated and I'm sure it's the case while the knock correction maybe good no way BMW would release an engine that pulls timing only in response to knock and uses no ignition maps what so ever.
    To be honest, not really sure what you are stating here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I view cps as an attempt toward that and while it is no where near real control I certainly would rather have it than not.
    Why?
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  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It is strange that the new beta maps "completely revise" the CPS system and "improve resolution 800%". Too lazy to look it up but I think the procede runs @ 50mhz. So with no prescaler you have 50,000,000 clock cycles per second. At say 7500 rpm that would be around 3333 ticks per edge. That is the highest theoretical resolution possible. So to improve resolution 800% they would have to have been running a 8x prescaler on that giving only 416 ticks @ 7500rpm. Barely enough to run properly. I doubt Adrian would leave a prescaler in there like that "just for kicks". Especially given he has plenty of 32bit timers available.
    Can you translate this into non-tuner? Just trying to understand it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv@Vishnu
    1) Completely new approach to crank signal processing. This results in a resolution improvement of 800%. Slightly overkill but the benefits will be felt in all applications (smoother idle, resistance to misfire, better ignition timing control, more consistent advance, etc,.)
    I don't get technically how they can claim to improve their resolution 800%. That would imply it was so bad before the motor should barely run without tooth errors. Also LOL as the "benefits" associated with this change. Strangely, they claim one of the side effects of these changes is taking some time longer for the motor to start. Awesome.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The limp mode part I understand but what about the changing of parts? What are you referring to exactly?
    On shivpost, you see people who post about misfires. Advice you see is that it is not the tune, and that they should replace plugs/coils/injectors/VANOS solenoids. At first I thought it was just people in denial of the fact that procede is flawed. But, then I noticed that, strangely, these solutions seem to end up working for people.

    So tell me... when numerous vehicles need said parts replaced much earlier than they should, what does that mean to you?

    It's actually kind of amusing. If the tune had a software problem causing the error, shiv could simply fix it and just tell people to update (for free). But, because the general consensus is that it is NOT the tune and has never been the tune, and further because the problem does actually seem to go away after capricious replacement of parts by multiple users, the procede evangelists seem to be unwittingly providing proof that parts actually do fail mysteriously faster with the procede.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I don't get technically how they can claim to improve their resolution 800%. That would imply it was so bad before the motor should barely run without tooth errors. Also LOL as the "benefits" associated with this change. Strangely, they claim a new side effect of these changes is taking some time longer for the motor to start. Awesome.
    Why not offer the tune with CPS and without CPS? I for one would be interested to see how a Procede does without it or is it simply too much of a part of the architecture do so?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Really? Click here to enlarge
    On shivpost, you see people who post about misfires. Advice you see is that it is not the tune, and that they should replace plugs/coils/injectors/VANOS solenoids. At first I thought it was just people in denial of the fact that procede is flawed. But, then I noticed that, strangely, these solutions seem to end up working for people.

    So tell me... when numerous vehicles need said parts replaced much earlier than they should, what does that mean to you?
    Well it tells me something in the tune is causing premature wear.

    However, aren't there people who made hardware changes who still had misfires? Secondly, a lot of those individuals got revised maps did they not? So perhaps they received a software + hardware change which then changes the variables possibly to save face.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Really? Click here to enlarge
    It's actually kind of amusing. If the tune had a software problem causing the error, shiv could simply fix it and just tell people to update (for free). But, because the general consensus is that it is NOT the tune and has never been the tune, and further because the problem does actually seem to go away after capricious replacement of parts by multiple users, the procede evangelists seem to be unwittingly providing proof that parts actually do fail mysteriously faster with the procede.
    At this point, I believe Shiv is more concerned with the image he portrays for the Procede than what is best for the users.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well it tells me something in the tune is causing premature wear.
    However, aren't there people who made hardware changes who still had misfires? Secondly, a lot of those individuals got revised maps did they not? So perhaps they received a software + hardware change which then changes the variables possibly to save face.
    Well that's what's interesting. Like I said, capricious hardware did in fact seem to work for most people before any software updates. Like you point out, some people seem to have had their problem fixed with software. Interestingly, there are still plenty of people with hardware AND software changes that still have problems. The wide net of variables and solutions, combined with people still having problems despite all efforts shows me that something is in fact strangely wrong. Unfortunately, because of the denial and complete lack of transparency, almost no procede owners will ever know what is really going on.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    At this point, I believe Shiv is more concerned with the image he portrays for the Procede than what is best for the users.
    Exactly. Even more unfortunate is the fact that people who somehow buy into his image based solely off of the shivpost procede evangelists may end up buying the procede thinking it's giving them a margin of safety. These same people, relying on the same evangelists that preach the tune, are then stuck with the very problem they were trying to avoid. Even worse, they have crappy service and are stuck replacing parts until shiv finally figures it out (hopefully).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not sure if you know this, but the car by default will add more boost in elevation and automatically adapt. So, it does see higher than "stock" boost in stock form.

    Now were really getting technical. Not really more boost because the engine is tuned based on volumetric efficiency and as elevation rises a barometric sensor realizes that the oxygen per psi decreases and in turns offsets that by pumping more air into the cylinders. It actually does this to maintain itself in the predetermined VE

    Because it is designed as an adaptive system. How wide the range for adjustment is hasn't really been defined but it has worked well with up to 20 psi thus far. That is a pretty good trial run to prove it's capability I would think.

    it has not adapted to run 20psi because it was never aware that it ran 20psi to begin with. If it truly adapts then Terry would have no need of messing with CPS offsetting or any of that since once it ran said boost and "adapted" to it it would not have drops in the timing or knock sensor activity as it would automatically set the correct timing based on past learned experiences. This does not happen or Terry PLEASE correct me if it does as I wont waste anyones time with incorrect info.

    To be honest, not really sure what you are stating here.

    I was saying that BMW or any other tuner with a capability to control timing would NEVER allow the knock sensor to set timing retard. It's currently done this way by the piggyback companies because they have NO OTHER alternative. Hope that was more clear.

    Why?

    Because adjusting timing for increased load is basic tuning and if there is a way to PROACTIVELY do it then I find that far better than knocking my way there.
    .

  19. #69
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    I still dont see why there are so many procede fanboys when you see so many problems with it. I know some people who will blame a fault in the tune completely on themselves. Its like everyone is going out of their way to protect Shiv? Not to mention all this new stuff he is coming out with is pretty ghey "DIC", "Large and in charge pipe" come on...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by n54-5&3 Click here to enlarge
    The wide net of variables and solutions, combined with people still having problems despite all efforts shows me that something is in fact strangely wrong.
    This, I completely agree with. Something is wrong, the people who know what is wrong are keeping their mouths shut, and I think a lot of people are starting to open their eyes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by n54-5&3 Click here to enlarge
    Even more unfortunate is the fact that people who somehow buy into his image based solely off of the shivpost procede evangelists may end up buying the procede thinking it's giving them a margin of safety.
    I feel a good tuner has a responsibility to do more than just make money. They have a responsibility to do work for the tuning community that is safe and inform those who have their tune of issues. Where is the personal responsibility here? Shouldn't at the bare minimum people be made aware of how the system functions at a basic level so they can understand what they are doing to their motors?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    I still dont see why there are so many procede fanboys when you see so many problems with it.
    Well, several reasons. And to be perfectly fair nobody is perfect and no tune or tuner is without their faults.

    The main reason though is due to this being forced on individuals. How can you not have fanboys if everyone is conditioned to say the same thing? How can you not see only positives when negatives are removed? If the largest source of information is only providing partial information, it is not a surprise why you see the fanboys you do.
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    People have done a great job of preserving Shivs immaculate reputation.
    Click here to enlarge


  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Now were really getting technical. Not really more boost because the engine is tuned based on volumetric efficiency and as elevation rises a barometric sensor realizes that the oxygen per psi decreases and in turns offsets that by pumping more air into the cylinders. It actually does this to maintain itself in the predetermined VE
    Yep, exactly, and does so by raising boost. So, the system is adaptive and isn't always running the same boost.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    it has not adapted to run 20psi because it was never aware that it ran 20psi to begin with. If it truly adapts then Terry would have no need of messing with CPS offsetting or any of that since once it ran said boost and "adapted" to it it would not have drops in the timing or knock sensor activity as it would automatically set the correct timing based on past learned experiences. This does not happen or Terry PLEASE correct me if it does as I wont waste anyones time with incorrect info.
    Does it have to know it is running 20 psi to compensate all other factors? It is doing so, right? Terry is messing with the CPS offsetting to give customers another option if they want it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I was saying that BMW or any other tuner with a capability to control timing would NEVER allow the knock sensor to set timing retard. It's currently done this way by the piggyback companies because they have NO OTHER alternative. Hope that was more clear.
    Yes, this is much more clear. Doing something just because you have no other alternative does not mean it is the right way to do it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Because adjusting timing for increased load is basic tuning and if there is a way to PROACTIVELY do it then I find that far better than knocking my way there.
    I don't see knocking with users allowing the DME to adjust? Yes, pulling timing is basic but this isn't pulling timing. It is influencing ignition timing at the expense of other factors. It isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be. No one would disagree with pulling timing for safety but people will disagree if you are tricking the ECU into pulling timing while throwing off the VANOS and the knock control.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    People have done a great job of preserving Shivs immaculate reputation.
    It really is impressive, I stand in awe.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It really is impressive, I stand in awe.
    I dont see how everyone likes him so much when he is a dick to his customers. I have never had any type of problem with him and he seems to be getting a lot better, but some of his previous posts are completely unprofessional.
    Click here to enlarge


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