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  1. #51
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    So that kind of explains the whole proceed misfire problem? Oh wait you said haltech. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alpinedevil335 Click here to enlarge
    So that kind of explains the whole proceed misfire problem? Oh wait you said haltech. Click here to enlarge
    Maybe, maybe not, just showing the potential issues something like this could cause especially if not tuned properly or in conditions outside usual operating range like say very cold days or nitrous use.

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  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alpinedevil335 Click here to enlarge
    So that kind of explains the whole proceed misfire problem? Oh wait you said haltech. Click here to enlarge
    Also, there has been so little feedback on this issue other than drama that we don't know. Sort of a lingering problem without info to really help the community or being properly addressed.

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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Also, there has been so little feedback on this issue other than drama that we don't know. Sort of a lingering problem without info to really help the community or being properly addressed.
    Very true.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alpinedevil335 Click here to enlarge
    Very true.
    Yes, it is, so this is a possible explanation. If JB4's with CPS start misfiring I think we will have narrowed something down.

    The people it involves already know, just a matter of us figuring it out.

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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, it is, so this is a possible explanation. If JB4's with CPS start misfiring I think we will have narrowed something down.

    The people it involves already know, just a matter of us figuring it out.
    Also true, but seems that BMS usually tends to take features others offer and make them better (work correctly)

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alpinedevil335 Click here to enlarge
    Also true, but seems that BMS usually tends to take features others offer and make them better (work correctly)
    I don't think there is any way to circumvent what manipulating the crank signal does to the cams as it would require changing the DME and Vanos completely.

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  8. #58
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    Agreed.

  9. #59
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    So....nobody picked up on the knock detection algorithms yet?

    What happens if you shift the place where the ECU thinks the misfire is occuring?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    So....nobody picked up on the knock detection algorithms yet?
    Nope, need clarification on this point. I didn't fully grasp what Nick G was saying and it seems nobody else did either.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    What happens if you shift the place where the ECU thinks the misfire is occuring?
    Why would the ecu think the misfire is somewhere other than it is? I'm not entirely sure of the diagnostic capabilities but won't it just tell you what cylinder is misfiring?

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  11. #61
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    It desensitizes the N54 DME's response to knock a bit as the DME falsely thinks you are running higher octane than you actually are. But all in all it's not a big deal. The problem with CPS offsetting is it isn't terribly effective as an advance management tool. Fortunately the DME is capable of handling it very well on its own. In the testing I've been doing the past week or so I've found a 3-4 retard degree offset can trick the DME in to running a little more advance than it would otherwise on lower grade fuels. I expect CPS to come in more handy in very high HP applications like large turbos and nitrous where one might want to lock in an advance curve that is further below the knock threshold than the OEM DME tuning provides.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The problem with CPS offsetting is it isn't terribly effective as an advance management tool.
    This should be no surprise by now. I just hope people understand it isn't direct or proper timing control as retarding the ignition while advancing the cams really isn't that. Also if doing so is at the expense of some knock protection but I have no idea how big the effect on the knock system really is.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I expect CPS to come in more handy in very high HP applications like large turbos and nitrous where one might want to lock in an advance curve that is further below the knock threshold than the OEM DME tuning provides.
    But then how do you take into account the effect this will have on the knock protection and the VANOS?

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  13. #63
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    You just weigh in all those factors. In those cases it would be used in moderation. Something like 2 degrees where the side effects are minimal.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You just weigh in all those factors. In those cases it would be used in moderation. Something like 2 degrees where the side effects are minimal.
    That's what I was thinking, do it where the advance is minimal, don't go overboard, gotcha.

    So how many degrees of ignition timing have you pulled or can you pull? Furthermore, how much do you intend to allow to be pulled in the production unit? Additionally, how does this compare to degree pulled in competitors who go about influencing timing in this manner?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What do you consider the usefulness of CPS control?
    I think from your question I might have a misunderstanding about what these piggyback ecu's have full control of and what they don't. On another thread I was expressing my desire to find an EMS solution for my N63 that I can create fuel and ignition maps from scratch and have full control of basically every option. At the time you stated that no such system existed referred me to standback which you believed to be the closest and I've seen that most people on here run someones flash tune or a piggyback. Since I was told that they didn't have direct control of timing I assumed they used this to alter timing. If not then can they create ignition tables for the ecu to run? Or if not then how else are they advancing or retarding as needed? I admit I don't know anything about tuning bmw's and was probably wrong.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That's what I was thinking, do it where the advance is minimal, don't go overboard, gotcha.

    So how many degrees of ignition timing have you pulled or can you pull? Furthermore, how much do you intend to allow to be pulled in the production unit? Additionally, how does this compare to degree pulled in competitors who go about influencing timing in this manner?
    The alpha setup has a buffer of 256 edges. So it can retard up to around 384 degrees. Click here to enlarge But I put the cap at 14 degrees in the software. The JB4 firmware controls it so I'm sure our strategies, amount offset, etc, will change around based on the map and future R&D. Right now I've been running around 3 degrees down low and around 4.5 degrees up top, on 91 octane, and it seems OK. Timing is a little smoother, power isn't much lower, no misfires at that level (yet), etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Since I was told that they didn't have direct control of timing I assumed they used this to alter timing. If not then can they create ignition tables for the ecu to run? Or if not then how else are they advancing or retarding as needed? I admit I don't know anything about tuning bmw's and was probably wrong.
    They are influencing timing by intercepting and modifying the CPS signal.

    What you are thinking is more along the lines of a flash. I would think the standback does not have direct control either but offers the end user more control over tuning factors than other piggybacks.

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  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The alpha setup has a buffer of 256 edges. So it can retard up to around 384 degrees. Click here to enlarge But I put the cap at 14 degrees in the software. The JB4 firmware controls it so I'm sure our strategies, amount offset, etc, will change around based on the map and future R&D. Right now I've been running around 3 degrees down low and around 4.5 degrees up top, on 91 octane, and it seems OK. Timing is a little smoother, power isn't much lower, no misfires at that level (yet), etc.
    Hmmm, you know Terry, what if you did try to go a little further with it in testing just to see if you do misfire?

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  19. #69
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    I can definitely make the car misfire with CPS. It's all about how much offset is applied and when it's applied.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They are influencing timing by intercepting and modifying the CPS signal.

    What you are thinking is more along the lines of a flash. I would think the standback does not have direct control either but offers the end user more control over tuning factors than other piggybacks.
    Actually that is exactly what I thought. Were you saying this isn't useful? I realize we are talking about piggybacks but they still gotta control timing some way.

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    Isnt it better to offset timings than knock constantly? When done right i do not see any issues with it.

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    They are not really mutually exclusive. You offset CPS & still knock constantly. Unless you offset so much CPS you completely clear the knock threshold system. But that has major performance drawbacks. Tunes in use today only offset about 50% of what they would need.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Actually that is exactly what I thought. Were you saying this isn't useful? I realize we are talking about piggybacks but they still gotta control timing some way.
    No, I am not saying it isn't useful I was just asking why you consider useful.

    Keep in mind, they are pulling ignition timing at the expense of control over cam timing. So you are only really influencing one aspect of timing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I can definitely make the car misfire with CPS. It's all about how much offset is applied and when it's applied.
    Does it misfire due to the CPS settings though or due to some other factor? It is solely related to the offset?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lonely335 Click here to enlarge
    Isnt it better to offset timings than knock constantly? When done right i do not see any issues with it.
    What is being done right? Some would argue if the cams are out of position then it is never right. At least, I think that is how someone looking from the perspective of the importance of VANOS would likely analyze it.

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