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  1. #26
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    Guys,

    A couple of things I want to clarify here.

    #1.) My comment was specifically about the Haltech Piggyback ECU, not their stand alone products.
    #2.) The biggest issue I see in this is possible piston to valve contact from excessive valve overlap at TDC. In my case, I was running a 2 step with 30 degrees of spark retard....which would actually cause the cams to move 30 degrees.
    #3.) I have experience with the Moristech Interceptor only, but the Haltech and AEM FIC work the same way with regard to timing adjustments. I'm cautioning people to be aware of what's going on with these devices also.

    Finally, my area of knowledge is mostly limited to the M54B30...so I can't comment with authority on the N54.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    #3.) I have experience with the Moristech Interceptor only, but the Haltech and AEM FIC work the same way with regard to timing adjustments. I'm cautioning people to be aware of what's going on with these devices also.
    There is also a fourth that works the same way however it is based on Haltech architecture so it may be best to leave it that way.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    The thread topic. Is there any proof that using CPS to adjust timing will advance or retard the intake and exhaust valves?
    It is like stated in the first post:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330CI
    The problem with this is that the engine thinks the crankshaft is in a position that it isn't, and adjusts the variable valve timing accordingly. Retarding the ignition timing with the Haltech by 4 degrees will actually advance both the intake and exhaust camshafts by 4 degrees. The VANOS uses the crank position sensor as a reference point.....
    Maybe PEI330CI can better explain if he has time why the crankshaft would be in a position that the DME doesn't think it is.

  4. #29
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    Of course this could be hazardous to your engine if not done properly. The more flexibility and options an ems provides you the greater the likelihood that in the wrong hands you can severly damage an engine. I use a haltech standalone for my RB and if I made a mistake in one of the settings I could easily blow the engine. That maybe a negative thing to most but if you are looking for maximum control and power you want/need all the options you can get. I don't know if that person above who said that he can make more power without being able to alter cam timing was being serious or not but if you know what your doing it can absolutely help. Yes you can make plenty of power without it but in the right hands(not mine) it is a useful tool.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I use a haltech standalone for my RB and if I made a mistake in one of the settings I could easily blow the engine.
    From what I understand, there is considerable difference in the Haltech piggyback architecture compared to the standalones.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I don't know if that person above who said that he can make more power without being able to alter cam timing was being serious or not but if you know what your doing it can absolutely help. Yes you can make plenty of power without it but in the right hands(not mine) it is a useful tool.
    I don't think he was saying he could make more power without altering cam timing only that with the way the signal was being interpreted by the ecu the cam timing wasn't where he though it was which is why he wasn't making power.

  6. #31
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    I understand what was meant about the haltech interceptor and its relation to another tune. But I doubt that part of the equation wasnt looked into during the design stages, I mean come on; that is such a basic thing I doubt it was overlooked.
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  7. #32
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    The whole point of the piggybacks is to alter the information the ecu receives. The danger is what the OP was worried about ie piston to valve contact if the timing is set way off by an inexperienced user. I can see how someone who sells these piggyback units would be reluctant to offer this as someone who may ruin their motor might want to blame it on the tune. Your right by him altering the signal to the ecu it won't know where the real cam timing is BUT he should and it's the tuners responsibility to know what's safe and what's not. That is no different than any other facet of tuning only a bit more difficult. I'm sure your right about the haltech piggybacks being different from their standalones and truthfully I don't know a thing about their piggybacks(although if they can work with my N63 I will be learning quickly!) but i was responding to him making it seem as if adjusting cam timing was some superfluous and inherently dangerous thing.

  8. #33
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    I also get that this is more of a swipe at procede than an actual inference that there was an issue with haltech's product. I just wanted to clarify the usefulness of cps control.

  9. #34
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    I dont think the piggybacks alter VANOS adjustments, I could be wrong but that is what I heard from a few tuners who can chime in if they want to. I think ignition timing is what was being discussed?
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I understand what was meant about the haltech interceptor and its relation to another tune. But I doubt that part of the equation wasnt looked into during the design stages, I mean come on; that is such a basic thing I doubt it was overlooked.
    Exactly

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I dont think the piggybacks alter VANOS adjustments, I could be wrong but that is what I heard from a few tuners who can chime in if they want to. I think ignition timing is what was being discussed?
    Well this thread was started to express PEI330ci's concern with haltech's interceptor and his "biggest concern is piston to valve contact due to incorrect timing" sounds like VANOS to me.

  12. #37
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    VANOS and injection timing are inadvertently altered which can contribute to misfires. But it's not a 1:1 relationship between CPS degrees offset and cam advance. I wouldn't worry about valves hitting the heads or anything drastic like that. I don't believe the VANOS system even allows for enough adjustment for any contact to occur.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-15-2011 at 10:01 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Well this thread was started to express PEI330ci's concern with haltech's interceptor and his "biggest concern is piston to valve contact due to incorrect timing" sounds like VANOS to me.
    Oh, I didnt read that part.
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  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Guys,

    A couple of things I want to clarify here.

    #1.) My comment was specifically about the Haltech Piggyback ECU, not their stand alone products.
    #2.) The biggest issue I see in this is possible piston to valve contact from excessive valve overlap at TDC. In my case, I was running a 2 step with 30 degrees of spark retard....which would actually cause the cams to move 30 degrees.
    #3.) I have experience with the Moristech Interceptor only, but the Haltech and AEM FIC work the same way with regard to timing adjustments. I'm cautioning people to be aware of what's going on with these devices also.

    Finally, my area of knowledge is mostly limited to the M54B30...so I can't comment with authority on the N54.
    The camshaft rotates only half the rate of the crankshaft.

  15. #40
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    Deleted, duplicate post.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I dont think the piggybacks alter VANOS adjustments, I could be wrong but that is what I heard from a few tuners who can chime in if they want to. I think ignition timing is what was being discussed?
    You aren't understanding, the way they alter the ignition timing means the DME does not know where the crank is exactly forcing the VANOS which relies on it to advance the cam timing.

    The piggybacks can't control VANOS, but they are influencing it without realizing it.

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by R1000K3 Click here to enlarge
    The camshaft rotates only half the rate of the crankshaft.
    He knows that:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330CI
    You are correct, 2 degrees in camshaft duration, but it would be off by 4 degrees on the crank. The DME will move the cam around based on it's target table...

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I don't believe the VANOS system even allows for enough adjustment for any contact to occur.
    Who knows for sure? The M54 has VANOS and piston to valve contact has occurred I believe.

  19. #44
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    I can only offer antidotal evidence but I've accidentally offset 20-30 degrees of CPS and no contact occurred. People have failed VANOS solenoids often causing it to get stuck in one position or another. Never heard of any interference.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I just wanted to clarify the usefulness of cps control.
    What do you consider the usefulness of CPS control?

  21. #46
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    I had a E46 320i with vanos, the exhaust cam vanos senor did malfunction. The car did not give me a CEL but I noticed it due to a loss of plwer at around 4000rpm, a friend and BMW tech hooked the car up to read fault codes, he said that if the DME notices issues with the vanos, it will play it safe and put the cams in a safe/non-agressive position and give the car a richer AFR to stay safe. Thus my loss of power and higher fuel cons. But if playing with cps upsets the vanos it should give codes, visible to us.

  22. #47
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    Interesting.....
    Click here to enlarge
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  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ar design Click here to enlarge
    Interesting.....
    should be for someone like yourself Click here to enlarge

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    should be for someone like yourself Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    sales@ardesign.info | tel. 303.351.3515| www.ardesign.info
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    But if playing with cps upsets the vanos it should give codes, visible to us.
    It depends to what degree and when. I'm sure there are situations where 1 degree being advanced won't be be noticed but situations where several degrees at a certain RPM will be.

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