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    Warning about how Haltech does timing control on their piggyback, possible CPS offsetting issue

    This was posted by PEI330ci in another spot but clearly he is referencing the N54 and I thought it should go where it would be more relevant:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330ci
    All,

    Recently I was approached by someone regarding running a Haltech Platinum series Interceptor piggyback ECU on a BMW engine.

    I read through the user manual and wiring instructions, and found a startling thing. The crank position sensor signal goes to the Haltech, and then to the DME. The Haltech receives this signal, and then the user can adjust the output signal to the DME to trick the DME into altering the ignition timing.

    The problem with this is that the engine thinks the crankshaft is in a position that it isn't, and adjusts the variable valve timing accordingly. Retarding the ignition timing with the Haltech by 4 degrees will actually advance both the intake and exhaust camshafts by 4 degrees. The VANOS uses the crank position sensor as a reference point.....

    I don't know that anybody on here uses one of these, or a device similar to it, but I thought this information would be important to any that might be considering it.

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    This is from Nick G who is a pretty respected tuner, just providing his perspective:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nick G
    I'd be more concerned with the affect to the knock detection algorithms in the ECU. By modifying the crank sensor reading, true TDC is no longer TDC to the ECU

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I haven't had a chance to dig into this more....but it's certainly something to be aware of with piggybacks and engines with variable valve timing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    I haven't had a chance to dig into this more....but it's certainly something to be aware of with piggybacks and engines with variable valve timing.
    That it is and this is much bigger than people realize. I'm just surprised it was not brought up before especially since a lot of people have been touting how much "safer" haltech style timing control is. Seems it may actually be the opposite.

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    HHmmm.. Nick G. doesnt he build and tune some of the fastest bimmers? and i dont recall PEI330CI's exact involvements, but the name rings a bell..

    Good thing noone uses a Haltec piggy on the N54.. oh wait..i vaguely remember that somebody does, cant remmbr who, but they just dont call it that Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    HHmmm.. Nick G. doesnt he build and tune some of the fastest bimmers?
    He is a well known tuner and does a lot of OBD-II E46 turbo work.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    and i dont recall PEI330CI's exact involvements, but the name rings a bell..
    He posts in the M54/S54 section mostly.

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    OMG this is really really bad ! we need to inform eveybody about the danger of this! please put it on the first page !

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lonely335 Click here to enlarge
    OMG this is really really bad ! we need to inform eveybody about the danger of this! please put it on the first page !
    high levels of sarcasm do not equal not true Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lonely335 Click here to enlarge
    OMG this is really really bad ! we need to inform eveybody about the danger of this! please put it on the first page !
    Yes, we do need to inform everybody about the potential danger here and the potential long term ramifications but it would not be very responsible to jump the gun like that if you are serious or not. Offering up the chance for a rebuttal and response is necessary first but if this is as accurate as what is stated (and the source is very well informed as are the other tuners commenting) well then all is not right in paradise.

    We need more information and analysis to constructively inform the community. I would like to be better informed on this as well before promoting it to the front page or anything like that.

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    This isn't really any news to anyone, right? This is what our piggies do, intercept signals and change them before sending them to the ECU. And that some piggies play with the CPS signal is somewhat over debated.

    I am not a beleiver in playing with the CPS, and I am sure any BMW engineer would agree...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    This isn't really any news to anyone, right? This is what our piggies do, intercept signals and change them bedore sending them to the ECU.
    It is because there is far more to it than that. This isn't just modifying some signals and getting more boost, it is about the cams being out of position and what that can mean for your motor.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    I am not a beleiver in playing with the CPS, and I am sure any BMW engineer would agree...
    This info may help people see why you feel that way.

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    So the intake valve and exhaust valve will both open late?
    Click here to enlarge


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Retarding the ignition timing with the Haltech by 4 degrees will actually advance both the intake and exhaust camshafts by 4 degrees. The VANOS uses the crank position sensor as a reference point.....
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Originally Posted by Nick G I'd be more concerned with the affect to the knock detection algorithms in the ECU. By modifying the crank sensor reading, true TDC is no longer TDC to the ECU
    so what does that mean? what is actually happening thn?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    So the intake valve and exhaust valve will both open late?
    Perhaps, but an over-advance can cause misfires...

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    CPS offsetting has all sorts of side effects which is why we decided against it early on. The injection timing effects are more notable than the VANOS effects IMHO. It's just a balancing act made more complicated by the fact that spark timing is also floating. Even though we've never had a single issue result from not using a CPS offset we're testing an add on JB4 module now. Simply to provide it for users who are convinced it's the way to go. It's easier than arguing with them and more palatable than seeing them go off any buy another system that offers CPS. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so what does that mean? what is actually happening thn?
    Well, I'm not the expert those guys are but if the signal is sent to try to influence timing it means where the ECU is expecting the cams to be is not where they are. Vanos, the variable valve timing control, uses the crank sensor to determine how to adjust the cams, right?

    So if the camshaft position is overadvanced, it can cause issues, like misfires or other issues. Hard to diagnose since it would likely be an intermittent issue as OBD-II ecus will tell you what cylinder has loss of power which will usually lead someone to think it is a loss of compression. If the head gasket checks out though, it is likely something in the tune. This is just speculation, but interesting nonetheless.

    Some extra info to better understand what cam positioning can mean:

    Advanced intake valve closing times tend to increase low speed compression and torque while retarded intake valve closing times tend to increase high-speed air flow. While exhaust valve timing isn’t as critical, changing the valve opening and closing times tend to produce similar results.

    As we shall see later, variable camshaft timing systems on modern engines utilize these effects in combination with tuned intake manifolds to vastly improve the throttle response and performance of relatively small displacement engines.

    The opening and closing times of the intake valves are critical to low- and high-speed performance. And last, the closing time of the exhaust valve is critical to initiating air flow into the cylinder when the piston is in the overlap position.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so what does that mean? what is actually happening thn?
    Regarding the knock detection, not sure I fully understand it but it seems Nick is saying the crank plays a part in the knock detection. If the signal is modified then the DME no longer is getting the correct info it needs for knock control, in theory. I think I remember Shiv telling me something about the crank and knock control, I'll look into it right now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    CPS offsetting has all sorts of side effects which is why we decided against it early on. The injection timing effects are more notable than the VANOS effects IMHO. It's just a balancing act made more complicated by the fact that spark timing is also floating. Even though we've never had a single issue result from not using a CPS offset we're testing an add on JB4 module now. Simply to provide it for users who are convinced it's the way to go. It's easier than arguing with them and more palatable than seeing them go off any buy another system that offers CPS. Click here to enlarge
    So are you suggesting not to buy it?
    Click here to enlarge


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    So are you suggesting not to buy it?
    I think he is saying it is there for those that want it and would otherwise choose the Procede due to it. Also, he suggested it would be safer for higher boost and nitrous applications although he may want to re-evaluate that now.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    So are you suggesting not to buy it?
    No, we've spent a lot of resources on its development. I hope everyone who visits e90post and participates in those timing threads buys one. Click here to enlarge The rest of us will continue going on making the same or more power just as safely and without side effects without it.

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    I want to hear more about this.
    Click here to enlarge


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    What does it matter how dangerous the haltech intercepter is with an n54? no one uses it?
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    What does it matter how dangerous the haltech intercepter is with an n54? no one uses it?
    Read between the lines.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    I want to hear more about this.
    What aspect? BMS adding CPS offsetting or you mean the thread topic?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What aspect? BMS adding CPS offsetting or you mean the thread topic?
    The thread topic. Is there any proof that using CPS to adjust timing will advance or retard the intake and exhaust valves?
    Click here to enlarge


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