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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    would like a technical discussion, if not than just to understand these piggyback tunes, and how they exactly work, better.
    Same here. I'm still torn between which tune(Procede and JB4) I want to get. I'm not a car expert but I'd like to understand them a bit more without all the bashing before I make my decision.
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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Scourge82 Click here to enlarge
    Same here. I'm still torn between which tune(Procede and JB4) I want to get. I'm not a car expert but I'd like to understand them a bit more without all the bashing before I make my decision.
    Both are great, it pretty much has come down to the point of personal preference.

    The N54 guys will be able to point you in the right direction but it also depends on what you want out of it and what your goals are.
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  3. #28
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    I agree both are great tunes, but the bias idiology on e90post makes it pretty hard to get a good comparision between the two. Hopefully this thread can get a good "healthy" discusion going.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Both are great, it pretty much has come down to the point of personal preference.
    Mmm, I think there's more to it than just that.
    It is also the way you as a customer is treated by the company you do business with, and the way problems are resolved.
    As I was very new to tuning the N54 4 months ago, I started by reading the websites. There are only so few, so I ended up here finally Click here to enlarge
    After all the reading I decided to go with the ProCede, mainly because of the autotune option. which seemed safer to me at the time.
    Then there was the december contest and I decided to sit this out, maybe I got lucky.
    In december there was the big issue with the ProCede and AT, and the way this was resolved made me doubt my decision very much.
    Also the news that the JB4 eventually would get an autotune option made me already shift towards BMS.
    My point being here is that the way you're treated as a customer to me is very important is all else seems equal.
    It made me shift tune. And off course Sticky you made the final decision for me Click here to enlarge
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    It is also the way you as a customer is treated by the company you do business with, and the way problems are resolved.
    Absolutely. Do you personally prefer quick customer service and answers to your questions or to be insulted/ignored for daring to ask a question? Some guys like to be abused, so I don't know.
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Some guys like to be abused, so I don't know.
    I guess there are a lot of kids over there into S&M then.

  7. #32
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    if somebody wants to, and not worried about getting banned, post the same question in the sharky frenzy of e90 and see if they get an answer Click here to enlarge of course, you will be banned for it, but at least you will have tried to get an answer

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I have a statement here, made by someone who seems to understand tuning a little bit better than, what I would call EVERYONE on E90.

    Could you care to read it, and break it down into why these statements are NOT true?
    I don't get why he's disgusted about faking load signal back to the DME... In order to keep the DME happy, don't BOTH piggybacks have to do this?

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AtlHarry335 Click here to enlarge
    I don't get why he's disgusted about faking load signal back to the DME... In order to keep the DME happy, don't BOTH piggybacks have to do this?
    basically, and im not the guy to say whether one way is better than the other. but the guy i quoted does raise good points, about more REAL problems than percieved problems with his method. and the fact that proceders are experienceing REAL problems vice a few naysayers perpetuation of PERCIEVED problems

  10. #35
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    But why would you single out that statement? That was a MAJOR part of your post and if it turns out to be applicable to both piggybacks, then it pretty much invalidates that person's understanding of how things work. Because that's a HUGE part of piggyback tuning and he got it completely wrong.

  11. #36
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    On another thread started over at E90Procede (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493245), a user has an interesting reply which kind of echos what most people have been saying here:

    This is just another disguised tuner bash. For whom may be interested, I have done some testing on a private road a few days ago with a friend's car which has a JB4 (he used Map 7). I have GIAC Stage 2.

    The ignition timing was almost identical between my GIAC Stage 2 pump and his JB4 map 7. We compared the excel files in detail after the runs, we did graphs. Nevertheless he beat me but I have fewer mods Click here to enlarge I will ask for his permission to post some of the graphs.

    Conclusion: the N54 ECU is not a Subaru ECU: it is more advanced. The knock sensors and knock ADAPTATION work very closely to ensure proper timing. At least from what I have seen, and I have seen hard data with back to back runs, not just talking and bashing.
    Somebody then quizzes him as to why he's running Map 7 without race gas, and his response is as follows:

    Map 7 is a 16psi map. GIAC Stage 2 is a 16psi map. My buddy thinks it's ok to run without meth with IAT's of like 58F (14 Celsius). But he does run meth almost all the time, that night he ran without because we were doing some comparisons between the Wagner intercooler and the Helix (and they're almost identical as far as IATs). And from the timing logs, it seems that ECU drops the timing to identical values to GIAC, which really makes sense: the ECU thinks this is the correct timing to run in these conditions based on knock sensors (not based on boost, which it sees as stock boost) and adapts accordingly. From what I read from Cobb, the ECU is riding the knock sensors all the time, even with flashes, so that explains why the timing was identical for the same boost and same IATs.
    User is tscdennab, not sure if he's on this forum to clarify a little more ...

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigup Click here to enlarge
    On another thread started over at E90Procede (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493245), a user has an interesting reply which kind of echos what most people have been saying here:



    Somebody then quizzes him as to why he's running Map 7 without race gas, and his response is as follows:



    User is tscdennab, not sure if he's on this forum to clarify a little more ...
    I'll withhold comment on his posts because he hasn't posted any logs. First thoughts are... I think we would see timing drops in both cars (and that's probably why the timing graphs are similar). 16PSI and neither were running meth at the time. Again, nothing can REALLY be said with no logs.

    EDIT: Also, the GIAC tune is probably running pretty conservative timing maps (I'm guessing here because I know very little about the tune itself).
    Last edited by AtlHarry335; 02-24-2011 at 12:43 PM.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AtlHarry335 Click here to enlarge
    But why would you single out that statement? That was a MAJOR part of your post and if it turns out to be applicable to both piggybacks, then it pretty much invalidates that person's understanding of how things work. Because that's a HUGE part of piggyback tuning and he got it completely wrong.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigup Click here to enlarge
    On another thread started over at E90Procede (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493245), a user has an interesting reply which kind of echos what most people have been saying here:



    Somebody then quizzes him as to why he's running Map 7 without race gas, and his response is as follows:



    User is tscdennab, not sure if he's on this forum to clarify a little more ...
    because over there there is no technical discussion, just witch hunting over theories from one side..and as posted above, it doesnt matter what facts anyone else posts (yes no graphs yet) but it still gets clouded by kids with no background (like me, only i dont make assumptions, i ask questions to get answers from those making claims)

  14. #39
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    While both tuners are here could you guys please explain to me how the auto tuning works? To me it seem like it just keeps raising boost until the engine knocks and pulls timing, and finds its "happy point". If that's really how it works, that kind of concerns me, but I could be wrong.

  15. #40
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    Without light knock you can have no adaption. It's how the OEM system works and how the piggyback autotuning works. We've had customers running around for years with variously over aggressive setups causing timing drop outs, never an issue, but now with the autotuning at least the system will detect and correct that within a pull or two. A couple pulls is much better than a couple years, if you believe those dips pose any long term issue. Click here to enlarge

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Without light knock you can have no adaption. It's how the OEM system works and how the piggyback autotuning works. We've had customers running around for years with variously over aggressive setups causing timing drop outs, never an issue, but now with the autotuning at least the system will detect and correct that within a pull or two. A couple pulls is much better than a couple years, if you believe those dips pose any long term issue. Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for the response Terry. I'm not trying to knock your guys' methods lol my questions are just out of pure curiosity. From my tuning experience, which i limited to 2 platforms, inducing knock to find the threshold is not something you want to do. But I guess the severity of knock would also come into play. I guess dealing with the Siemens DME's, and how quickly it is able to react makes things a bit different, most of my experience is with a basic standalone.

  17. #42
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    Yeah, it's a different platform. If you tried to run a supercharged LS1 motor this way you'd have a broken motor in exactly one 1/4 mile pull. But tuning is all about adapting to the DME you're working with. Not trying to tune the latest BMW with the same methods you'd use for a 1970s Datsun. Closed loop timing is a hard concept for most to get their heads around but other nice things about this DME include full time closed loop widebands. No more fuel mapping headaches, integrated throttle trimming to help with boost control, good wastegate response time, etc.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Without light knock you can have no adaption. It's how the OEM system works and how the piggyback autotuning works. We've had customers running around for years with variously over aggressive setups causing timing drop outs, never an issue, but now with the autotuning at least the system will detect and correct that within a pull or two. A couple pulls is much better than a couple years, if you believe those dips pose any long term issue. Click here to enlarge
    Nice save Click here to enlarge

  19. #44
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    I've abused our development motors in ways you guys could never imagine and often check the plugs expecting to find them blown apart, melted, or covered in specs. Never anything unusual. There the real danger is in higher HP applications running lean, and of course with meth logic the DME isn't intended to deal with.

    On the DI motor it has faster combustion thus takes less advance, typically is happy to run much leaner than a traditonal fuel injection motor especially at lower RPM where it has multiple injections, etc.

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    4 out of 4 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AtlHarry335 Click here to enlarge
    But why would you single out that statement? That was a MAJOR part of your post and if it turns out to be applicable to both piggybacks, then it pretty much invalidates that person's understanding of how things work. Because that's a HUGE part of piggyback tuning and he got it completely wrong.
    Read through the posts that followed on n54tech, then you will see that it is not the “MAJOR part of the post.” If you still think that “invalidates” the logic, then post back here or there with why.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AtlHarry335 Click here to enlarge
    Nice save

    If the concept is properly appreciated, Terry’s comment that you quoted really isn’t a save or even an attempt at it.

    I really don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I have three thoughts about the BS proCEDE users utilize in their knock analysis that seems to be serving a basis for their effort to screw everyone up from understanding their "sovereign" "almighty" logic:

    1. It is overstated by the proCEDE clan. Their blanket statement that "all knock is bad" carries as much weight as saying "cranking your car to start it is bad." There are degrees of bad, and appropriate degrees of concern. If you don't want to do anything that's bad for your car, you would never get past the sinking feeling of pushing the start button in the first place and damaging your engine doing so. If you can get past starting the engine, you should never give the engine real load, because your damaging it every time you do that too. etc. etc.
    2. There IS such a thing as "light knock," and they are full of crap for claiming there isn't (I've seen some people call this pre-knock, which is wrong, but an accurate attempt to differentiate severity of knock). There is a very intelligent tuned knock sensor that BMW uses to identify this light knock at levels that people could not dream of perceiving. Tuners that claim otherwise either have no concept of the complex ignition system BMW utilizes to constantly balance many engine variables, or their logic is limited to a very basic understanding of tuning cars with much more primitive ECU's (or they're just trying to scare everyone who doesn't understand the difference). Back in the day, knock was regarded much differently and required much more concern because it was only noticeable in much larger events and with no ability for the engine to react with immediate correction or otherwise protect itself. With such systems, by the time you know your knocking, it's probably too late. But it really doesn't matter because this point goes back to the point in #1. (not to mention... you would have TONS of blown motors on BOTH of these tunes if their concerns had ANY real basis).
    3. The stock car "rides the knock sensor" just like they chastise the JB for doing. The proCEDE also "rides the knock sensor" with its autotune or when overboosting on any map (which is COMMON). Without doing so, it wouldn't know where to set it's limits.

    They claim that their faked ignition curve results in less occurrences of this, but: a) even if done correctly, there are probably only MARGINALLY less of these insignificant events, and b) there is documented problem with their implementation (which, by the way, causes real damage).

    They should be proving that their real problems haven't caused engine damage, not trying to make others prove that they theoretical damage hasn't caused any engine damage.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    because over there there is no technical discussion, just witch hunting over theories from one side..and as posted above, it doesnt matter what facts anyone else posts (yes no graphs yet) but it still gets clouded by kids with no background (like me, only i dont make assumptions, i ask questions to get answers from those making claims)
    Ok, so let's break this down rationally.

    Originally Posted by *****
    My goal was to simply point out the hypocrisy in their so-called knock analysis in the two threads I posted in (where they analyzed only ignition or a single dyno run) and bring it down to a rational conversation. I even PM'd a number of people (including Shiv himself) for conversations on a few of their comments to try to see where they were coming from first. I was hoping for some real conversation and to get down to what they are relying on for the assertions, but not a one of them ever responded.
    Ok, we get it, he's pissed about being ignored. Nothing technical here.

    It's kind of interesting... I read these forums for a while before deciding to tune my street vehicle (this is the first time I have done so). I saw and still see the potential CPS offsetting in any engine tuning application, but see no proof that they are doing it correctly (or well), or anything other than marginal difference on this platform.
    Again, nothing technical here. There are tons of Procede logs that show zero timing drops during 3rd gear pulls. I don't know what else he needs for proof. I'm sure there will be lots of nice looking logs for JB4 as well, but they are two different approaches. I'm very interested in seeing how power levels and sustained boost compare between a Procede autotune vs a JB4 autotune (once it actually exits beta).

    As with anything mechanical, there is theory and there is application. I see good theory, but bad application by vishnu. While they jump on every JB thread talking about the potential for engine damage (over very extended periods of time so far as I can see), they ignore the real people using their product who have posts about real problems that really are causing real damage. With all the complaints and all the bad service over there, their attempt to adjust ignition just struck me as one more possible area for their tune to fail and risk more real damage.
    Again, absolutely nothing technical here. Yes, the Procede had misfire issues for a period of time. He EVENTUALLY (yes, I recognize that it took an extended period of time) resolved it just like any other tuner would. And this was a misfire, not knock. It's pretty easy to change a fouled spark plug. That's really the only real problem that could be reproduced on many different cars that I can think of that plagued the Procede recently.

    In fact, the frequent posts over there by people with problems and the frequent posts about horrible service are why I went with JB. Theories about potential JB problems are cause for theoretical concern... seeing proCEDE people with real problems is cause for real concern.
    Do you see anything technical?

    So let's get to the second argument you thought worthy of posting.

    He got the basis of piggyback tuning wrong (understanding that piggies send false readings to the DME to achieve the desired result). /credibility

  22. #47
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    ok, we were writing at the same time. I'll respond to your most recent post soon.

    BTW, I said it was a major part of LOSTMARINE's post, not the thread on N54tech, for which there was no link.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    What's the difference between tuning a DI motor vs PI motor? Are the principals basically the same?
    This is a loaded question and is probably best for a separate thread.
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    Fair enough, that makes sense. Take a look at it and get back.

  25. #50
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    btw, link?

    nvm, found it
    Last edited by AtlHarry335; 02-24-2011 at 06:48 PM.

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