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  1. #1
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    4 out of 4 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    Rod Bearing Failure...

    I have been reluctant to post about this earlier as I wanted to give Gintani ample time to look at the engine to try and determine what happened before I posted. We have an idea what caused it but currently the motor has not been broken down to do a full inspection. Given the current drama / speculation on the forums, I felt, along with Gintani, that we should post now and let everyone know that a failure did occur on my car, and then follow up later when we have more solid detailed information. As of now I know of no other Gintani car that has had a failure, but mine.

    The engine had been making a slight ticking noise on the passenger side wheel well for about a month before the failure, it sounded like an exhaust leak, but it is difficult to pinpoint noises on this engine. It appeared to have been a bad rod bearing that was causing the noise. Eventually the bearing failed, the rod seized onto the crank shaft, broke and one half came out the side of the block. That is all I currently know for certain, when Gintani tears the motor down they can investigate further to try and pinpoint exactly what it was, then post pictures, and a more accurate detailed analysis. It appears though that the Active Autowerke car that failed, is very similar in nature to this failure.

    A few things to point out -

    1. I've been running 9psi for over 10K miles on the motor, currently no other kit runs this much boost.
    2. When I dynoed the car, and removed the air filter, it hit 11psi, and you can see on the dyno a huge dip up top, which could be detonation.
    3. The seals on my 1st blower blew out while doing some spirited driving, eventually the car ran out of oil, this could have damaged the bearing.
    4. Other 2008 motors have been torn down and found to have wear on the rod bearings that could have eventually failed as mine did.

    The current status is that a long block is on it's way, Gintani is covering the cost of the motor and all labor, which is above and beyond what most companies would do. I am extremely thankful to them for doing so, they have always taken care of me. Right now my plans are that I am going to keep the kit, but most likely will lower the boost, hopefully I will be up and running soon, with more dyno's, video's, vbox data, etc.
    Last edited by DLSJ5; 02-23-2011 at 01:16 AM.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

  2. #2
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    Sorry to hear Drew, hope to see you back up and running soon. We probably won't know anything definitive until you get a chance to open it up but the top two causes of rod bearing failure are:


    #1 Oil

    a) Low pressure (low level, aeration, starvation due to high G-s, bearing tolerances too loose from wear or poor assembly, faulty pump etc)
    b) contamination/degradation (old oil, too hot, too cold, mixed with antifreeze or fuel, etc)
    c) improper weight (e.g. using 0w-20 when 10w-60 is specified)


    #2 Revving too high... especially:

    a) before engine is fully warmed (tolerances are greater on cold engine)
    b) if engine harmonics become an issue (unbalanced/underdamped)
    c) engine hardware not up to task (stretching rod bolts)


    Far below those two are things like excessive combustion pressure (usually detonation). Possible, but they usually cause other damage first.


    As an aside, some may remember that early S54 engines had what most people call a rod bearing recall, but the cause was not poor bearing choice/fit but rather faulty oil pumps combined with an unacceptable level of assembly line contamination. The service action was 3-pronged: update to the new pump, replace the rod bearings in case they were worn, and update the DME's cold-start programming (perhaps among the changes were lower rpm targets when cold)

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    Sorry to hear Drew, hope to see you back up and running soon. We probably won't know anything definitive until you get a chance to open it up but the top two causes of rod bearing failure are:


    #1 Oil

    a) Low pressure (low level, aeration, starvation due to high G-s, bearing tolerances too loose from wear or poor assembly, faulty pump etc)
    b) contamination/degradation (old oil, too hot, too cold, mixed with antifreeze or fuel, etc)
    c) improper weight (e.g. using 0w-20 when 10w-60 is specified)


    #2 Revving too high... especially:

    a) before engine is fully warmed (tolerances are greater on cold engine)
    b) if engine harmonics become an issue (unbalanced/underdamped)
    c) engine hardware not up to task (stretching rod bolts)


    Far below those two are things like excessive combustion pressure (usually detonation). Possible, but they usually cause other damage first.


    As an aside, some may remember that early S54 engines had what most people call a rod bearing recall, but the cause was not poor bearing choice/fit but rather faulty oil pumps combined with an unacceptable level of assembly line contamination. The service action was 3-pronged: update to the new pump, replace the rod bearings in case they were worn, and update the DME's cold-start programming (perhaps among the changes were lower rpm targets when cold)
    Thank you, great information. I very much appreciate your insight and knowledge, you are always are extremely helpful.

    It's not fun, but I've had several friends go through the same thing, but not so lucky in terms of how their situation was handled, many of them were left in the cold. I'm very lucky that I'm being taken care of.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

  4. #4
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    Promoted to front page to show we are not biased toward anyone which has been an incorrect assertion. Unfortunate situation but we will discuss the good and the bad.

    I will be chiming in with more information on the faulty rod bearings BMW has replaced in all models subsequent to '08 builds shortly.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Sorry to hear what happened Drew , i must say its really good that they are taking care of you like that !
    Hope things work out and see you up and running soon !!

    Good luck ...............

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Promoted to front page to show we are not biased to anyone which has been an incorrect assertion. Unfortunate situation but we will discuss the good and the bad.

    I will be chiming in with more information on the faulty rod bearings BMW has replaced in all models subsequent to '08 builds shortly.
    I have no problem with that.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
    Sorry to hear what happened Drew , i must say its really good that they are taking care of you like that !
    Hope things work out and see you up and running soon !!

    Good luck ...............
    I appreciate that Jaime, thank you.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

  8. #8
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    Sorry to hear about your problem, but I'm glad they're working with you on getting it repaired.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
    Sorry to hear about your problem, but I'm glad they're working with you on getting it repaired.
    Thanks man.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Thanks for posting drew....

    on a side note...when I had my M3, i drove over a parking block with the front bumper, tore some tubing, and whatever connects the intercooler and drained the intercooler of all its water. Tracked the car not knowing I did all this....car was perfect at the track, but point is when I found out, brought it to Gintani and they took care of everthing for me even thou it was my fault.
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

  11. #11
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    Wanted to add, other cars that had been disassembled saw premature bearing wear. I think that individual will likely chime in at some point but others have shown tremendous bearing wear and that there have been failures in stock cars due to the early rod bearings.

    Going to get the part numbers shortly.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    That's some great customer service! You were going above and beyond the norm. I have a feeling the suspected bad bearings coupled with the fact you almost ran out of oil when the seals went, probably just spelled doom in a shorter length of time.


    Are there any plans to beef the engine up more? Or is a stock engine just going to go in?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    That's some great customer service! You were going above and beyond the norm. I have a feeling the suspected bad bearings coupled with the fact you almost ran out of oil when the seals went, probably just spelled doom in a shorter length of time.


    Are there any plans to beef the engine up more? Or is a stock engine just going to go in?
    Hopefully we will find out. The new engine will not be beefed up, I think the internals are strong, this appears to be bearing issue. I do not plan on lowering compression and going with more boost in the future. Most likely when I go big power it will be a turbo from the factory.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

  14. #14
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    Gotcha. Good luck!

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    now that's good customer service there! so sad it happened, but 10k in boosted miles sounds like loads of fun already Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    In most cars, rod bearing failure is as a result of low oil / pressure. I'd start there.

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Promoted to front page to show we are not biased toward anyone which has been an incorrect assertion. Unfortunate situation but we will discuss the good and the bad.

    I will be chiming in with more information on the faulty rod bearings BMW has replaced in all models subsequent to '08 builds shortly.
    They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 . Drews car is a DCT Click here to enlarge
    Rod bearing is a failure caused by detonation over extended periods of time ( it has happened to my 02 APR mototrsport built 1.8t GTi runing 30psi 3 times and i gave up on that piece of crap )

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
    They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 . Drews car is a DCT Click here to enlarge
    Rod bearing is a failure caused by detonation over extended periods of time ( it has happened to my 02 APR mototrsport built 1.8t GTi runing 30psi 3 times and i gave up on that piece of crap )
    Bud, some '09 cars were built in '08. From what I have read, the switch was made AFTER '08.

    And it begins, detonation over extended periods of time? So the stock cars that failed were detonating? Please, a faulty rod bearing can cause a rod bearing failure or else how do you explain all the failures being '08 builds that are tied to this are everything from SC'd, stroked, to stock?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Def a Click here to enlarge for taking care you ...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
    Def a Click here to enlarge for taking care you ...
    To be honest, they didn't have to. That really is going above and beyond. Other companies would not do this (and have not).

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Bud, some '09 cars were built in '08. From what I have read, the switch was made AFTER '08.

    And it begins, detonation over extended periods of time? So the stock cars that failed were detonating? Please, a faulty rod bearing can cause a rod bearing failure or else how do you explain all the failures being '08 builds that are tied to this are everything from SC'd, stroked, to stock?
    Drew put a solid 10k boosted miles on his car if it were a bearing i think would have let go a long time ago , that's why i'm leaning towards the detonation , running high boost on these motors is scary especially if the tune is not spot on ..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    To be honest, they didn't have to. That really is going above and beyond. Other companies would not do this (and have not).
    oh snap .... i actually agree with you for once Click here to enlarge
    Drew deserves it !! he went above and beyond from day one Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Bud, some '09 cars were built in '08. From what I have read, the switch was made AFTER '08.

    And it begins, detonation over extended periods of time? So the stock cars that failed were detonating? Please, a faulty rod bearing can cause a rod bearing failure or else how do you explain all the failures being '08 builds that are tied to this are everything from SC'd, stroked, to stock?
    It's not 100% linked to detonation, but it CAN cause rod bearing failure. When a cylinder experiences it, it hammers down on the piston, rod and the half of the bearing attached to the big end. When it does thIs, it beats the bearing slightly out of round, kind of like bending a wheel. Now the oil film that the bearing rides on gets scrapedoff by the bearing on every rotation, and starts to take metal off the bearing....over time it wears away, develops play(which is the knocking noise you hear), the oil pressure drops down because of the huge gap now, and the bearing overheats and welds itself to the crank...and bye bye block.

    I'm not saying all the M3s did this, but in this case it prolly was a combination of the 3.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
    They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 . Drews car is a DCT Click here to enlarge
    Rod bearing is a failure caused by detonation over extended periods of time ( it has happened to my 02 APR mototrsport built 1.8t GTi runing 30psi 3 times and i gave up on that piece of crap )
    Not necessarily, it can be mostly oil starvation issues. And we know how sensitive the S54/S65 is to oil. Hammering the rod bearing would be VERY easy to see if it was detonation - which I highly doubt based on what I've seen of the ignition timing used, and how sensitive the factory DME is. It's very hard to blow these cars up from abuse.

    You're not exactly an engine builder M33.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Detonation is a possibility, but it would be extraordinarily rare for detonation to beat a rod bearing into submission without also doing damage elsewhere. We'll just have to wait until the engine is disassembled to know for sure.

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