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  1. #1
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    "Chinese Cast" N54 platform turbocharger craze in full force

    Posting for Rob as he said he is away from the computer until Monday sometime:

    "All,

    There are some "new casted" offerings floating amuck with promise of "better flow, better materials, brand new, and best cost". Now it is always great to have new options especially for a better price, but understand that these items are 100% cheap chinese produced "core" offerings. We have considered their usage as well as this platform is evolving into a more competitive environment (cheaper cars, etc etc); but when we already have a "dialed-in" product we wonder if it is worth the potential risks of making a SUBSTANTIAL change to a lower quality oriented direction? All for the end result of selling a product for the same cost, or maybe a couple hundred less, at best. Being a vendor who is ultimately responsible for product quality these are thoughts that are very critical. Additionally even though the warranty is "only" a year we still would like products to last many MANY years. We especially would like to not have product fail due to poor metallurgical or casting quality, and this type of problem is EPIDEMIC.

    As you may understand we have had these units in hand for a while now as they have been readily available for close to a year. Despite what some vendors may say, such as "we own the design" or "custom made only for us" comments rest assured these exact same units they are utilizing. There is nothing special about them and whoever may obtain them (especially with a large bulk order) and the ONLY customization that maybe setting apart Vendor to Vendor is the differences of the internal wheel machining specifications. These wheel specs however have nothing to do with the overall housing design and quality.

    Our immediate initial impressions are that they are a certain downgrade- and here are a few reasons why:

    1) Highly Magnetic to show a larger Iron content (ie. in lieu of the OE style MHI High Quality High Heat Austenitic Stainless steel)(we have metallurgical analysis underway)
    2) Similar to smaller ID manifold/turbine housing dimensions (we have cross sections underway) and certain poorer flow paths per borescope views
    NOTE: We CERTAINLY are NOT seeing these as larger ID specs!!!
    3) Lack of OE style Double wall insulated air gapped (made by Boysen) manifolds for worse heat retention
    4) Much thicker casting walls (large OD specs from thicker materials so "looks" a bit larger) and each housing at over 10lbs vs. under 7lbs for OEM

    Good things we see (with using them):
    1) Very cheap to purchase
    2) Being new there is no refurbishment
    3) Come pre-equipped with "new" wastegates (albeit the worst aftermarket design we have found)

    Good things we see from their availability (while others use them):
    1) Will free up a ton of higher quality OEM cores to use as the base builds

    Few good links to educate oneself:
    1) http://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/revi...53/e453001.pdf
    2) http://www.fev.com/fileadmin/user_up...foldDesign.pdf
    3)

    We are very curious to see how the competition has came up with some of their "conclusions" on these new "core" units being superior. They've come to the conclusion that these are higher flowing and better quality manifolds/housings, but we are unsure how that can be whatsoever on our initial findings. They'd be welcome to post up any data they've found in this thread, whether they do or don't it is not of great concern as we will soon- good or bad.

    Obviously our perception (vs. that of some of competitors) have come to some very different conclusions here, and of course everything is up for debate but our thoughts are this is a rather risky maneuver to use as a core product for a base build/upgrade... at least NOT without much further due diligence. Even then it will take an awful lot more perks, that we are not even remotely seeing at this moment, to warrant the slight savings of making this change.

    Rob"

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    Well said! I have said it before, the these oem engineers knew exactly what they were doing. If you not looking to make big time power, stick with what works! The big time power, need everything else to make it all work front to back.
    DRD RACE BMW 2008 135I, N54, Cobb tuned, Active Autowerks Exhuast, E30, 20 lbs boost

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    Twins are just scary now. I'll miss the low end grunt, but turbo reliability is my top priority. Single it is.

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    Pretty much confirms what we thougt, although i tought the exhaust pathway was actually bigger.
    Waiting to see your cross section, should be very interesting.

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    I assume these quoted words are from Rob Beck? It seems this article is mostly pointed at Tony/VTT, which is sad because i really thought those two had finally gotten past the childish bickering. Fact of the matter is that Tony is 100% $#@!ting on all other stock location twin kits right now. Doesn't surprise me that RB would attempt to discredit him by spinning an analysis to look much worse than it really is.

    1) Who cares unless the manifolds start breaking? Its a balance of performance vs costs, as it always is.
    2) Potentially an issue, although the power numbers seem to not agree with this at all...
    3) Yeah... who is going to offer this in the aftermarket? Not anyone willing to offer manifolds anywhere near a reasonable price.
    4) Really? The thicket metal is bothering you? It gives off more heat? Say it aint so! See point #1 .


    RB = CNN?
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    God I love this post! RB doing what he does best. Every time we shake things up, he loses his $#@!, and attacks, only to add the parts to his line up at a later date. Funny Rob is posting all over the forum, but Joe is posting attack, smear campaigns for him. Gotta love a forum owner attacking its vendors, claiming he is doing it for another vendor.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...515#post764515

    See post 18 for the full review of RB initial reaction to VTT shake up though the years...
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N54 1/2Mile World Record: 172.94MPH
    N55 World Record: 11.7ET / 122.7MPH (MT)
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 699WHP / 714WTQ
    N54 Twin Turbo World Record: 847WHP/ 761WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record: 585WHP / 537WTQ
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    #VTTDOMINATION #VTT #VARGASTURBO #VTTBOUNTY

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    This does seem like spreading FUD by Rob and not backed up by any proof. If he actually had verifiable proof with cross section and data about less heat/energy retention in the manifold and housing that might be different.
    I didn't even realize RB was still around and selling turbos. Do people actually still use him? lol

    But I do find it hard to believe that anyone has really "designed from scratch" these cast manifold and that they actually own the casting design, instead of just getting them machined in some customized way.
    That is a very expensive and difficult process and it is just too convenient that several people all have basically the same cast manifolds "custom" made in China.
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    Tony,

    Thanks for the long winded ones-sided rant of complete and utter off-topic-ness, you must give yourself a headache at times. Please let us know if you have anything of merit to add to the topic at hand.

    As this has made it to BimmerBoost where the critics stand strong we also want to make something really clear about this platform- there is certainly NO shortage of work. We are and have been continually, many sets in the hole and anytime we think we will get a break we are slammed with more orders. If a break ever comes we are sure you will see a thread attempting to market to the forums with prebuilt sets, our website will be updated with about 10 other products we do not have time to add to it (for months on end), and last but not least we would be working on other projects we have been wanting to work on for years.

    Back on topic there are a couple different types of demographics out there, the types that are "just get me on the road I'm trading in the next month or two and saving a penny is better than not" and still the others who "care about quality and are willing to pay for it". We have no beef if someone wants to pay a bit less for less quality, and this is simply what this PSA was about. To have a vendor go out and make the claims that they are (regarding these particular "cores") is quite disheartening or even more so quite disturbing... and is doing quite the injustice to those second types listed above who may otherwise be none the wiser.

    We would encourage those to read between the lines, ask more questions, and educate yourself regarding the topic at hand.

    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Tony,

    Thanks for the long winded ones-sided rant of complete and utter off-topic-ness, you must give yourself a headache at times. Please let us know if you have anything of merit to add to the topic at hand.

    As this has made it to BimmerBoost where the critics stand strong we also want to make something really clear about this platform- there is certainly NO shortage of work. We are and have been continually, many sets in the hole and anytime we think we will get a break we are slammed with more orders. If a break ever comes we are sure you will see a thread attempting to market to the forums with prebuilt sets, our website will be updated with about 10 other products we do not have time to add to it (for months on end), and last but not least we would be working on other projects we have been wanting to work on for years.

    Back on topic there are a couple different types of demographics out there, the types that are "just get me on the road I'm trading in the next month or two and saving a penny is better than not" and still the others who "care about quality and are willing to pay for it". We have no beef if someone wants to pay a bit less for less quality, and this is simply what this PSA was about. To have a vendor go out and make the claims that they are (regarding these particular "cores") is quite disheartening or even more so quite disturbing... and is doing quite the injustice to those second types listed above who may otherwise be none the wiser.

    We would encourage those to read between the lines, ask more questions, and educate yourself regarding the topic at hand.

    Rob
    I understand where the work comes from... I personally know 3 people who left the 135/335 platform as a whole after going through multiple sets of your smokey turbos.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Tony,

    As this has made it to BimmerBoost where the critics stand strong we also want to make something really clear about this platform- there is certainly NO shortage of work. We are and have been continually, many sets in the hole and anytime we think we will get a break we are slammed with more orders. If a break ever comes we are sure you will see a thread attempting to market to the forums with prebuilt sets, our website will be updated with about 10 other products we do not have time to add to it (for months on end), and last but not least we would be working on other projects we have been wanting to work on for years.
    Lol you say all of this like its a good thing but no, that just means you are understaffed and inefficient in your work.
    If you actually could be selling more and getting new products out and "working on other projects you have been wanting to work on for years" then it sounds like you are a $#@!ty boss/manager/businessman.

    When I have employees complaining about being too busy it reflects poorly on them. It is EASY to be "busy" but it is difficult to be effective and efficient at what you do.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    I understand where the work comes from... I personally know 3 people who left the 135/335 platform as a whole after going through multiple sets of your smokey turbos.
    Appreciate the feedback. It may come as some relief to you that despite having well over 750 sets of RB's across the globe since 2011, we actually have only 1 set here for refurbishing. You find anyone with a bad set tell them we have a solid refurbishment program, an are an email away.

    Thanks,
    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by subaru335i Click here to enlarge
    Lol you say all of this like its a good thing but no, that just means you are understaffed and inefficient in your work.
    If you actually could be selling more and getting new products out and "working on other projects you have been wanting to work on for years" then it sounds like you are a $#@!ty boss/manager/businessman.

    When I have employees complaining about being too busy it reflects poorly on them. It is EASY to be "busy" but it is difficult to be effective and efficient at what you do.
    Thanks for your feedback and concur. Certainly understaffed and most importantly need more machinery. We purchased a very high dollar Schenck component balancer late last year and may add in another VSR late this year. Being a bit anti-financing we tend to only buy large machines with cash. Business 101 however is not the topic at hand.

    Rob

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    So what's the PSA about? Is this just to put doubt in potential buyers? I see you posted more information on N54tech over three hours ago but you haven't added it here? I'm just not understanding why you made this post? If it's cheap garbage why do you care or feel you need to bring it to the n54 community's attention? You don't offer this product in your lineup so it won't steal any "real" business from you. The pricing is phenomenal I'm sure for some people it will sway them towards Vargas.

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    So as we noticed the competitive vendor posts were edited this morning it compelled us to go ahead and also dice the China manifold this morning... someones hands seem to be caught in the cooker jar. First let us review the "new" version of the marketing-

    Vendor:"All current stock frame turbo manifolds choke down to a very tight 1.25” diameter passageway before entering the turbo housing. We found this to be a significant bottleneck at about the 700 whp mark give or take a little, depending on how much you like tons of backpressure in your system. Not going to make 700 whp? It's still a problem; greater backpressure means your engine breaths less easily, making you have to run higher boost for a given power level. Our new Stage 2 and 2+ are new (did we mention new?), fully cast housings that open that diameter up from 1.24” to 1.30”, which is a 5% increase in area. They breath a little easier, which helps eliminate excessive back pressure."

    Keep in mind prior to this posting, yesterday, it was: "1.25" to 1.50", a 44% increase"... got to love cleanup marketing and good thing for "CNN".Click here to enlarge

    Re: OEM vs. China Manifold to housing connection point cutaway and sizing


    Verdict- China housing is actually ~.050" smaller in this area. More clear views inside both manifolds and housings illustrate that if anything it is a "close performer" to OEM and not superior in anyway whatsoever (when it comes to airflow performance only). The casting is actually very poor and seems to be "scrunched" further in some areas. A flow bench test of each manifold maybe in order at some point, however next up is metallurgical analysis.

    Thanks,
    Rob
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Well you just added it right after my post so ignore that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zombie1 Click here to enlarge
    So what's the PSA about? Is this just to put doubt in potential buyers? I see you posted more information on N54tech over three hours ago but you haven't added it here? I'm just not understanding why you made this post? If it's cheap garbage why do you care or feel you need to bring it to the n54 community's attention? You don't offer this product in your lineup so it won't steal any "real" business from you. The pricing is phenomenal I'm sure for some people it will sway them towards Vargas.
    Pretty simple concept really: The market is being told some pretty outlandish stuff. We simply are straightening out the BS for you all on a silver platter. You don't care? No problem do as you wish. However some may like to know what they are really purchasing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zombie1 Click here to enlarge
    Well you just added it right after my post so ignore that.
    No problem. Regarding the pricing (at least outside the GB) it is actually the same as our RB Twos- aside we are using the MUCH higher quality (and known performers) OEM housings, so really not that phenomenal just more so heavily marketed.

    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    So as we noticed the competitive vendor posts were edited this morning it compelled us to go ahead and also dice the China manifold this morning... someones hands seem to be caught in the cooker jar. First let us review the "new" version of the marketing-

    Vendor:"All current stock frame turbo manifolds choke down to a very tight 1.25” diameter passageway before entering the turbo housing. We found this to be a significant bottleneck at about the 700 whp mark give or take a little, depending on how much you like tons of backpressure in your system. Not going to make 700 whp? It's still a problem; greater backpressure means your engine breaths less easily, making you have to run higher boost for a given power level. Our new Stage 2 and 2+ are new (did we mention new?), fully cast housings that open that diameter up from 1.24” to 1.30”, which is a 5% increase in area. They breath a little easier, which helps eliminate excessive back pressure."

    Keep in mind prior to this posting, yesterday, it was: "1.25" to 1.50", a 44% increase"... got to love cleanup marketing and good thing for "CNN".Click here to enlarge

    Re: OEM vs. China Manifold to housing connection point cutaway and sizing


    Verdict- China housing is actually ~.050" smaller in this area. More clear views inside both manifolds and housings illustrate that if anything it is a "close performer" to OEM and not superior in anyway whatsoever (when it comes to airflow performance only). The casting is actually very poor and seems to be "scrunched" further in some areas. A flow bench test of each manifold maybe in order at some point, however next up is metallurgical analysis.

    Thanks,
    Rob
    I see 3 cases for the size mix up:
    1 The vendor didn't measure and made an assumption of the 1.25'' to 1.50''
    2 The Chinese manufacturer lied about it
    3 The Chinese manufacturer ignored the customer's request to make the section 1.50''

    Guess which one happened Click here to enlarge


    If I had to bet I would say it's easier to sell the cast manifold turbos(less labor) and at a higher profit margin while selling it at a slight discount over previous models to the consumer.
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    I don't know about marketing clean up. More like fixing a mistake.

    I have to take responsibility here. Simply put, I $#@!ed up. I mixed up these dimensions with dimensions on another project that's based on GC's. I acknowledge it looks bad, and it's no ones fault but my own, and quite frankly I'm embarrassed about it. This is one of the liabilities of being in a different state making tech posts. Corrections have been made everywhere I posted.

    Chris

    Edit: Torgus, I just saw your post. None of those, it was my fault. Click here to enlarge
    Chris - VTT Forum Representative
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I don't know about marketing clean up. More like fixing a mistake.

    I have to take responsibility here. Simply put, I $#@!ed up. I mixed up these dimensions with dimensions on another project that's based on GC's. I acknowledge it looks bad, and it's no ones fault but my own, and quite frankly I'm embarrassed about it. This is one of the liabilities of being in a different state making tech posts. Corrections have been made everywhere I posted.

    Chris

    Edit: Torgus, I just saw your post. None of those, it was my fault. Click here to enlarge
    Awww I figured the chinese did a switcharoo on you. I hear stories all the time about what they have done, all the shady stuff, etc.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I don't know about marketing clean up. More like fixing a mistake.

    I have to take responsibility here. Simply put, I $#@!ed up. I mixed up these dimensions with dimensions on another project that's based on GC's. I acknowledge it looks bad, and it's no ones fault but my own, and quite frankly I'm embarrassed about it. This is one of the liabilities of being in a different state making tech posts. Corrections have been made everywhere I posted.

    Chris

    Edit: Torgus, I just saw your post. None of those, it was my fault. Click here to enlarge
    Chris,

    We appreciate your attempt at saving VTT face as if you were simply a secretary who "wrote down the wrong information on some post it and got it mixed up". The problem is someone with your supposed knowledge and skill should know MUCH better than to type this sort of crap, try to deceive an entire community. Now just say "whoops, my booboo".

    If you really want to make it right we would suggest amending every post in every for sale thread you posted about product superiority, and just say what it is... such as we are using some cost cutting low quality china cores we believe in, they should perform close to OEMs, we will have to do less work to sell them to you, and you will get product for a little cheaper. Everyone wins. And voila the world is at peace again.

    Honestly we thought this debate was going to take place with another vendor (who has yet to get lifted off the ground), unfortunately you beat them to their own lineup and thus here we meet again.

    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Chris,

    We appreciate your attempt at saving VTT face as if you were simply a secretary who "wrote down the wrong information on some post it and got it mixed up".

    The problem is someone with your supposed knowledge and skill should know MUCH better than to type this sort of crap, try to deceive an entire community. Now just say "whoops, my booboo". If you really want to make it right we would suggest amending every post in every for sale thread you posted about superiority, and just say what it is... (ie. we are using some cost cutting low quality china cores, we will have to do less work, you will get product for a little cheaper). And voila the world is at peace again.

    Rob
    Rob,

    Don't mistake my particular skillset with being weak minded.

    I made a mistake, it is embarrassing, I have fixed the posts, and if you would like to play ball, show up with something better, for a better price, or deal with your own issues.

    If you want to go toe to toe... don't. This isn't your opportunity for greatness.

    Chris

    P.S. Our turbos are still much better than yours. All of them. xoxo
    Chris - VTT Forum Representative
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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Rob,

    Don't mistake my particular skillset with being weak minded.

    I made a mistake, it is embarrassing, I have fixed the posts, and if you would like to play ball, show up with something better, for a better price, or deal with your own issues.

    If you want to go toe to toe... don't. This isn't your opportunity for greatness.

    Chris

    P.S. Our turbos are still much better than yours. All of them. xoxo
    You still have yet to fix the posts... not even close.

    And who is "our" anyway? You do realize your brand is basically a China reseller? Didn't we establish that over a year ago with your top turbo lineup? Now didn't we again establish it today with your new one? You do realize you have inferior in-house turbo machinery? You also have no in-house CNC facilities. The VSR you would do your own builds on is the cheapest unit available from China. So what exactly is better, genuinely curious? Marketing...?

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    12 out of 12 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    ...

    one thing i learned by being on these forums for years is that...

    I won't buy a thing from neither of you two

  25. #25
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    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cloud9blue Click here to enlarge
    ...

    one thing i learned by being on these forums for years is that...

    I won't buy a thing from neither of you two
    Here is some rep!

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