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  1. #601
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    I am not interested in Snow or Labonte's opinion on the matter - they're still handling methanol spray based on manifold pressure which fundamentally makes little sense. I've discussed with such manufacturers in the past and they made it clear that "our system works best out of any other" typical marketing crap and they're all using the same controller and pumps...

    Your fuel demand follows your torque curve - when it peaks, fuel requirement peaks. Meanwhile Snow and Labonte run based on manifold pressure which is merely a blanket of "spray more and more fluid as boost comes on" which doesn't work if you understand IDC and fuel requirements. I've owned snow kits - ever 5th gear pull results in a different resulting lambda value because of control methods. I've talked in length with Richard of Aquamist who was the main system consulted by WRC teams as well as Jeff Howerton from Howerton Engineering - they'll tell you how it is. That, combined with the experience of having used methanol for about 5 years now will help you understand what's happening in that plenum. And, is ultimately why anyone spraying a high volume of methanol should ditch the typical PWM pump and use a HSV like that used in the Aquamist HFS-6 which is trigger and controller by injector duty cycle. We've had these debates in regards to N54 guys who simply spray a static amount of $#@! in their intake above x psi of manifold pressure - they don't get how it works, and the people manufacturing the kits don't either. Sure it might "work" - but wearing a shirt as pants will "work" too - you just look stupid and its not ideal.

    Have a read:

    http://forums.evolutionm.net/water-a...-aquamist.html

    Great link. Damm now it looks like I really need to get a HFS-6 system. Are you running meth injectors in each runner of the intake manifold?
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  2. #602
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    Sticky, it plainly does not evaporate instantly. Watch a video. Go inject some. Check downstream of your nozzle for residue and tell me how that could be if its evaporating instantly. It starts evaporating, but even steam condenses on surfaces. I don't know why this is so confusing. I have shown video of methanol not evaporating.


  3. #603
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Sticky, it plainly does not evaporate instantly. Watch a video. Go inject some. Check downstream of your nozzle for residue and tell me how that could be if its evaporating instantly. It starts evaporating, but even steam condenses on surfaces. I don't know why this is so confusing. I have shown video of methanol not evaporating.
    I'm not choosing sides here, just it seems the chemical properties would mean meth and water evaporate at different rates.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not choosing sides here, just it seems the chemical properties would mean meth and water evaporate at different rates.
    Methanol and pudding evaporate at different rates too. The point is, methanol does cling and condense to surfaces in an intake manifold. You're also forgetting that the original discussion was whether or not methanol puddled in the manifold and ignited which is even more likely given it wouldn't have been atomized. You can see in the link what the stream of fluid out of those types of nozzles look would a solenoid fail.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Methanol and pudding evaporate at different rates too. The point is, methanol does cling and condense to surfaces in an intake manifold. You're also forgetting that the original discussion was whether or not methanol puddled in the manifold and ignited which is even more likely given it wouldn't have been atomized. You can see in the link what the stream of fluid out of those types of nozzles look would a solenoid fail.
    Trust me, I understand the discussion and various theories regarding what happened to Evan's car. Could it have puddled and ignited? Sure it could have.

    My point is that the posts on the chemical properties is accurate.

  6. #606
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    Of course they're accurate their copied and pasted from any number of MSDS/property pages on a website.

    But you also see people saying matter of factly, "100% methanol cools better than water" - some documentation will insist that. However, that's not true.

    And further, companies quote methanol as having an octane rating anywhere from 100 to 125... depending on what spec sheets you look at you could infer anywhere between there. Regardless, water is a better cooling agent and methanol does not evaporate instantaneously else we'd be injecting steam.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    But you also see people saying matter of factly, "100% methanol cools better than water" - some documentation will insist that. However, that's not true.
    Need your reference?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    And further, companies quote methanol as having an octane rating anywhere from 100 to 125... depending on what spec sheets you look at you could infer anywhere between there. Regardless, water is a better cooling agent and methanol does not evaporate instantaneously else we'd be injecting steam.
    I'm all for a 50/50 mix and personally don't use 100% meth injection. Some people do to supplement their fuel system which is a band-aid approach but regardless I have not written anything saying 100% is the way to go.

  8. #608
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Need your reference?



    I'm all for a 50/50 mix and personally don't use 100% meth injection. Some people do to supplement their fuel system which is a band-aid approach but regardless I have not written anything saying 100% is the way to go.
    Its not a band-aid if you're using it to supplement your fuel supply and treating the injection method as a fuel system. But guys with N54's for instance are hooking up a 200 psi shureflow pump to a grovery store produce sprayer nozzle and triggering it on 100% at X psi and going with it. I am dumbing it down only slightly, but if you have an an accurate and reliable injection method then fine, supplemental fueling is fine. But just like TBI cars of yesteryear, don't be surprised if the fluids laying in your intake ignite at some point.


  9. #609
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Its not a band-aid if you're using it to supplement your fuel supply and treating the injection method as a fuel system. But guys with N54's for instance are hooking up a 200 psi shureflow pump to a grovery store produce sprayer nozzle and triggering it on 100% at X psi and going with it. I am dumbing it down only slightly, but if you have an an accurate and reliable injection method then fine, supplemental fueling is fine. But just like TBI cars of yesteryear, don't be surprised if the fluids laying in your intake ignite at some point.
    They are using the meth to supplement their fuel system because they can't upgrade their fuel system. That is why it is a band-aid. If you are using it as a supplement and your fuel system is capable of flowing more, fine, but it doesn't work like that for them. That is also why many inject 100% meth which isn't safe and likely doesn't have the same detonation resistance as it would with a little bit of water mixed in.

  10. #610
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    I think you missed my point - meth as a supplement to fuel is not a band aid... when treated properly. The methodology these companies are using for injecting is hackish and is nothing more than "When boost goes up pump speed goes up, so meth goes up, eh that should work ok".

    There's nothing wrong with supplementing pump gas with methanol so long as your system is treated properly, as proper control, and proper fail safes. If all of those are met, it is not a "band aid".


  11. #611
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    I think you missed my point - meth as a supplement to fuel is not a band aid... when treated properly
    No I get your point, I think you missed mine though where I stated using meth because you can't upgrade the fuel system is a band-aid. What happens if the meth does fail?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    There's nothing wrong with supplementing pump gas with methanol so long as your system is treated properly, as proper control, and proper fail safes. If all of those are met, it is not a "band aid".
    Well I disagree. I think using meth as a supplement if done correctly is fine but do not consider it a replacement for a proper fuel system.

    I prefer using it for the advantages of raising detonation resistance even with pump fuel, not because I do not have enough fuel. If you are using it because you don't have fuel, it essentially is functioning as a band-aid for a proper fuel system.

  12. #612
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    Jon,

    Can you elaborate on how water would cool better than meth?

    Also, the nozzle that's found on the HPF system is probably the most advanced atomizer available in this type of application. I can give you a link to the manufacturer....but AEM and a few others won't like it being posted here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Jon,

    Can you elaborate on how water would cool better than meth?

    Also, the nozzle that's found on the HPF system is probably the most advanced atomizer available in this type of application. I can give you a link to the manufacturer....but AEM and a few others won't like it being posted here.
    Please post! Click here to enlarge

  14. #614
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Jon,

    Can you elaborate on how water would cool better than meth?

    Also, the nozzle that's found on the HPF system is probably the most advanced atomizer available in this type of application. I can give you a link to the manufacturer....but AEM and a few others won't like it being posted here.
    Water basically absorbs more energy (heat) in order for it to evaporate into steam...double that of methanol...that's why it cools better...it removes more heat.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No I get your point, I think you missed mine though where I stated using meth because you can't upgrade the fuel system is a band-aid. What happens if the meth does fail?

    Well I disagree. I think using meth as a supplement if done correctly is fine but do not consider it a replacement for a proper fuel system.

    I prefer using it for the advantages of raising detonation resistance even with pump fuel, not because I do not have enough fuel. If you are using it because you don't have fuel, it essentially is functioning as a band-aid for a proper fuel system.
    Its not in terms of "enough" fuel - its in terms of power requirements that approach the threshold of the primary fuels ability. I run almost (estimated) 820 BHP through my motor - there are guys who do that on straight 93 octane, but its for bragging rights and they reserve doing that regularly. I run 50:50 to broaden that threshold.

    As for your question as to what happens when it fails - in my case, my car is slower. I have no idea what HPF does, and sometimes I feel they aren't sure either. There's been a number of "failure" that didn't fail and resulted in engine damage. I know for certain that they are lacking a crucial component for a reliable fail system. They tried to implement it, and failed doing so and I will explain that in a sec.

    On my setup I run an Aquamist HFS-6 setup which utilizes a flow meter with adjustable thresholds for both over- and under-flow. Out of the controller is a wire that is configurable for failing. Using the example of flow failure you can configure at what point the unit considers an issue in flow, how long before it triggers (or un-triggers, depending on how your ECU works) the output of the system-failed signal, for how long that signal is held before trying to run methanol again, an how long its tried for, etc. In my case, I have it configured so that if I turn off my HFS-6 gauge my ECU map switches. That switches to another boost target table (lower boost), timing table (which I have same low load timing, but pulled boost timing), and fuel table (since the absence of methanol will result in running lean). The result is a system that will run a safer low boost tune at the push of a button or failure. The beauty of it is not only is the thing fool proof, it logs flow - there is a 0-5 VDC out of the controller that logs the flow that the flow meter sees. Since HFS-6 is controlled via injector DC, you can see how flow relates to your injector PW, where exactly (at what DC %) your system is turning on, and see the flow curve in your log along with all of the other variables going on. The other interesting thing is I can turn the methanol system on with an output of the ECU and switch tables with an input to the ECU, so I can have the methanol system only work once coolant temperatures are above 150F which in turns raises my boost over 150F, adds timing, etc. You could do it based on wheel speed, intake temp, number of cam pulses, whatever you want that would fit your needs of a safer and more reliable operating vehicle. IE. - when intake temperatures are below 40F, I don't trigger the methanol system on which means my car runs low boost in the cold/winter for road safety. On and on.

    The problem with HPF's implementation, and I've made a big enough stink for them to attempt to remedy it, is they have no idea where their fluid is going. People say "Yeah ok whatever there's no possible way Evan's manifold blew up with methanol due to a solenoid failure." Why not? They would never know. They COULD know, but they don't implement the right $150 device to detect it. They have no flow meter. They talk about injecting 1,200 cc of straight methanol into the manifold but they have ABSOLUTELY no idea if it's getting there. The pumps everyone have these days are capable of making 100 psi of line pressure with a 1/8 - 1/4" hole anywhere in the line - even an open line will register high pressure. For a moment I think HPF realized my (and other) peoples concerns - you could have a rubbed-through nylon line spraying 100% methanol into your engine bay and never know. The only fail safe they have is a pressure sensor on the output of the pump. They know the flow rate (or rather, the engineers who came up with their system know) of their nozzles, so all you need is a flow meter in line that can meter over that flow rate. They would then have something telling them the pressure and flow going through their system. So, they went and implemented a flow gauge that reads 1,000 cc/min and were ready to claim success. Problem is, they claim they inject 1,200 cc/min of fluid. That means the flow meter would not be able to meter a failure let alone standard operating conditions. Standard conditions would be off the metering chart of the flow meter and so a hole in the line or split line would be as well - the only thing they considered was a blockage which without considering an open,split, cracked, broken line.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Jon,

    Can you elaborate on how water would cool better than meth?

    Also, the nozzle that's found on the HPF system is probably the most advanced atomizer available in this type of application. I can give you a link to the manufacturer....but AEM and a few others won't like it being posted here.
    Adam - the system I saw looked to use a Kalvico-made unit. Which wouldn't surprise me given that's what all of AEM's sensors are. I use them on my car they're much cheaper than through AEM. Same with their MAC valves.

    Water cools better than meth because it slows combustion and prevents peak cyl pressure from spiking prematurely (detonation/pre-ignition). Methanol slows combustion too so long as cylinder temps are with a certain threshold. But, will rapidly increase combustion rate when cylinder temperatures are high contributing to the issue should you start to have one. Water doesn't compress as we know, and when it heats it becomes steam - steam expands, making more pressure. In-cylinder peak pressure increases with water injecting, increasing effective pressure during combustion, while having cooled just before and just after combustion - win win win.

    People tend to get so caught up with what the injection does ahead of the intake valve without realizing the benefit of whats happening between the exhaust and intake valve. CCSykes keeps talking about how a fluid is "instantly evaporating" in the intake and not condensing anywhere - well we know evaporation results in steam - if allowed to condense, we get puddling, if not allowed to condense it means we have a pressure increase in the vessel - which is dangerous if talking about flammable liquids. Anyhow, you probably know, but water has almost 2x the specific heat as methanol at any given temperature.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    As for your question as to what happens when it fails - in my case, my car is slower. I have no idea what HPF does, and sometimes I feel they aren't sure either. There's been a number of "failure" that didn't fail and resulted in engine damage. I know for certain that they are lacking a crucial component for a reliable fail system. They tried to implement it, and failed doing so and I will explain that in a sec.
    I'm not speaking of your case. I'm speaking specifically about the N54 and if you are using the meth as fuel because your fuel system is maxed what happens when it fails at very high boost which relies on the meth is you lose your motor. There is a difference between using it as a supplement to raise octane and relying on it as fuel due to shortcomings in your fuel system.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    The problem with HPF's implementation, and I've made a big enough stink for them to attempt to remedy it, is they have no idea where their fluid is going. People say "Yeah ok whatever there's no possible way Evan's manifold blew up with methanol due to a solenoid failure." Why not? They would never know. They COULD know, but they don't implement the right $150 device to detect it.
    I do not know enough about HPF's meth system to speculate on the cause of failure. All I know is Evan had an issue he says was due to meth and others have provided alternate explanations. I do not know what the cause was but I think it is vital for the car to be examined and for the cause of failure to be definitively established so that if any changes need to be made to improve the system, they can be made.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    I can give you a link to the manufacturer....but AEM and a few others won't like it being posted here.
    I wouldn't say it's a secret, HPF mentions it on their web site.. FJO Racing Products. Quick search in google and presto.. link.

    Unless of course FJO is also outsourcing the product.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not speaking of your case. I'm speaking specifically about the N54 and if you are using the meth as fuel because your fuel system is maxed what happens when it fails at very high boost which relies on the meth is you lose your motor. There is a difference between using it as a supplement to raise octane and relying on it as fuel due to shortcomings in your fuel system.



    I do not know enough about HPF's meth system to speculate on the cause of failure. All I know is Evan had an issue he says was due to meth and others have provided alternate explanations. I do not know what the cause was but I think it is vital for the car to be examined and for the cause of failure to be definitively established so that if any changes need to be made to improve the system, they can be made.
    This thread is titled S54 upgrades so I am speaking in terms of S54s. But the same principles apply. If you configure a PROPER system like the Aquamist HFS-6 to control the boost solenoid on your N54, then if it fails, you revert to wastegate spring pressure. Problem is, people with N54s are running Labonte, Coolingmist, Snow Performance junk without any safety provisions, let alone proper injection methodology.


  19. #619
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    This thread is titled S54 upgrades so I am speaking in terms of S54s.
    You sure?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5
    We've had these debates in regards to N54 guys who simply spray a static amount of $#@! in their intake above x psi of manifold pressure - they don't get how it works, and the people manufacturing the kits don't either. Sure it might "work" - but wearing a shirt as pants will "work" too - you just look stupid and its not ideal.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5
    But guys with N54's for instance are hooking up a 200 psi shureflow pump to a grovery store produce sprayer nozzle and triggering it on 100% at X psi and going with it. I am dumbing it down only slightly, but if you have an an accurate and reliable injection method then fine, supplemental fueling is fine. But just like TBI cars of yesteryear, don't be surprised if the fluids laying in your intake ignite at some point.
    I was actually responding to your N54 points.

    A lot of guys are running failsafes now but it also depends on what tune they are running, etc. The point really is that there is nothing wrong with meth or whatnot and using a 50/50 mix is great but in the N54 applications it is often used due to fuel system limitations not just to lower intake temps or raise octane.

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    I hit on N54s with 3 lines and like 500 with S54 topic Click here to enlarge

    In the N54 applications the use is just wrong. Half of those fools are running 100% pump speed at 12 psi and just running like that to redline. Idiocy really - they are doing it expecting the car to adapt 100% realtime. Sad, really.


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    So let me ask you guys, in the HPF stg 2 kits should we be using pure meth or meth/water 50/50 mix?
    Click here to enlarge



    EURO 04 M3 Current Mods:GC DAs, Eibach Sways, PF RTAB's, RE RCAs, INTRAVEE II, Black Roundels, ///MFEST Badges, Depo's, Screen protector for NAV display, VCSL Bumper + Race Lip & CF Trunk & CF Rear Diffusor, DIETZ TV in Motion, SS= V1 Headers + catless pipes + X-Pipe + SS Sport Exhaust, Z8 Starter Button, Lamin-X, OEM CSL interior, OEM CSL Steering, OEM CSL Intake, OEM CSL Roof, MSS54HP + OEM CSL Tune, BBS CH's, LIGHTWERKZ, 355mm ST40 BBK, BW Oil Cooler....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 0-60Motorsports Click here to enlarge
    So let me ask you guys, in the HPF stg 2 kits should we be using pure meth or meth/water 50/50 mix?
    For the meth maps I believe HPF has it tuned for 100% meth.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    For the meth maps I believe HPF has it tuned for 100% meth.
    Roger that. That's what we've been running all along
    Click here to enlarge



    EURO 04 M3 Current Mods:GC DAs, Eibach Sways, PF RTAB's, RE RCAs, INTRAVEE II, Black Roundels, ///MFEST Badges, Depo's, Screen protector for NAV display, VCSL Bumper + Race Lip & CF Trunk & CF Rear Diffusor, DIETZ TV in Motion, SS= V1 Headers + catless pipes + X-Pipe + SS Sport Exhaust, Z8 Starter Button, Lamin-X, OEM CSL interior, OEM CSL Steering, OEM CSL Intake, OEM CSL Roof, MSS54HP + OEM CSL Tune, BBS CH's, LIGHTWERKZ, 355mm ST40 BBK, BW Oil Cooler....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 0-60Motorsports Click here to enlarge
    So let me ask you guys, in the HPF stg 2 kits should we be using pure meth or meth/water 50/50 mix?
    You have to run what they tell you and pray they did more research on that than they did other things - like the methanol control switches Click here to enlarge


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    Cool I got the new meth control switches already
    Click here to enlarge



    EURO 04 M3 Current Mods:GC DAs, Eibach Sways, PF RTAB's, RE RCAs, INTRAVEE II, Black Roundels, ///MFEST Badges, Depo's, Screen protector for NAV display, VCSL Bumper + Race Lip & CF Trunk & CF Rear Diffusor, DIETZ TV in Motion, SS= V1 Headers + catless pipes + X-Pipe + SS Sport Exhaust, Z8 Starter Button, Lamin-X, OEM CSL interior, OEM CSL Steering, OEM CSL Intake, OEM CSL Roof, MSS54HP + OEM CSL Tune, BBS CH's, LIGHTWERKZ, 355mm ST40 BBK, BW Oil Cooler....

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