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  1. #1
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    Procede Meth Integration Software and Hardware Revamp

    aka: Procede Controlled, Fully Mappable Methanol Injection System with Aquamist hardware

    It sounds like we weren't the only people looking at the Aquamist kit for N54 applications. Shiv is working on using a new way to progressively control meth spray using a high speed valve, rather than changing the pump pressure. This results in
    A: Getting rid of the failsafes (Labante, etc) that have been failure prone for many users
    B: Reducing the amount of hardware required, allowing users to install everything in the engine bay if they so desire without serious modification
    C: As per Shiv- better atomization, better performance, more water injection benefits, and less meth waste

    "Hi guys,
    One of the things I've been testing here is a new methanol kit design. Currently running in our n54 and about to be installed in our n55. It's quite different from our current methanol system in that it only shares one common component (the Shurflo pump). The flow sensor, nozzles, injector, fittings, mounting hardware, pick-up, etc,. are all different.

    And unlike the previous methanol kit, which was somewhat conventional in design (variable speed pump referenced off of a boost signal), the new design is more along the lines of a traditional, constant pressure, injector controlled fuel system as developed by Aquamist years ago. This means that instead of varying pump pressure to adjust methanol flow, this system keeps line pressure constant at 150psi and uses a high speed injector/valve to properly meter meth flow. Not only did this approach results in much faster response times and more consistent atomization, it also gave us the ability to use the Procede as a controller and map its output as a function of boost and RPM. Which means that methanol flow is finally matched to the engine's fuel needs. Whereas before with the boost-only referenced system, you would essentially be wasting meth at low RPM to get enough flow at high RPM.

    Click here to enlarge

    What's more is that we also implemented additional trims if IATs gets exceptionally hot or cold. So now methanol flow is another tuning variable that we are actively adjusting based upon input sensors.

    Click here to enlarge

    Hardware
    And unlike any other methanol kit, this new design has no additional electronic boxes to wire or mount. The pump is controlled by a simple 5psi pressure switch mounted in the charge pipe. The meth injector, which is mounted just inches away from the nozzles, is controlled by an output on the Procede. Methanol flow is monitored by the flow sensor's raw digital waveform (read by hall effects sensor!).

    Some new changes to the nozzles as well. Now there are two of them (each one an m7) since we can control actual meth flow through the injector instead of dealing with pressure related flow nonlinearities. The end result is better atomization and a much wider dynamic range. Which means that it would satisfy a mild tune that just needs a slight IAT charge reduction. As well as a max power, big turbo set-up that needs max cooling, more octane and more fuel.

    Installation
    Now here's the really new part. Since there are no additional electronics to wire up, the whole methanol injection system can install/removed in 20 minutes without the use of any jacks/lift/etc,. The entire pump/nozzle/relay/flow sensor assembly is one piece and secures on to two existing bolts just behind the driver-side head light. There is a 3 wire connector that plugs into the Procede harness. And then the pick-up drops down into the 1 gallon windshield water bottle through a modified cap. So yes, the whole kit literally installs in less than 20 minutes. And can be removed just as quickly for dealership visits. If an external tank is desired, that can be mounted in the trunk which would involve routing the pick-up line under the car. But I'm using the washer bottle which is the same size, far more convenient and even has a level sensor which provides a dash alert when meth level gets low. This is what I use an I'm quite happy with it.

    Meth/water mixtures
    One of the shortcomings of the conventional pump speed controlled methanol kits is that you had to run a strong methanol/water mix as too much water would could cause the engine to bog down at lower engine speeds. But with the ability to meter the mixture as a function of actual fuel needs (rpm vs load), this is no longer the case. Which means that we can now run a 50/50 mix which is not only perfectly safe and nonflammable but also offers much better charge cooling than the usual 80/20 mixes. And with none of the safety issues but with all of the performance. I've been using Cooling Mist Boost Juice which I had shipped to me from Summit Racing (4 gallons for $30). A good alternative for those who don't have access to methanol locally. And yes, it can still be used as windshield washer fluid when you want to clean of those bugs Click here to enlarge

    Here's a pic of the prototype system. Not going to show a close up just yet since we are still holding a few things close to the chest. Also still waiting for the production mounting brackets. But this should give you an idea:

    Click here to enlarge

    Cheers,
    shiv"
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #2
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Here's a picture of the new flow sensor (*hall effect sensor) and valve. Looks like a pretty sweet setup. Shiv stated there will be a retrofit kit for his original meth kit owners and it sounds like it should work just fine with other companies products. No pricing or specifics yes

    Click here to enlarge

    Link to and picture of a simple 'hall effect sensor'

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by SSDD; 02-09-2011 at 07:01 AM.
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #3
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    And good Shiv quote-ables

    "Yes, now the Procede takes the role of both devices (*flow sensor, failsafe, and progressive controller*). Meth flow is provided by a motorsports grade flow sensor which is fed directly into the Procede. Similarly, the Procede controls the solenoid which meters meth flow into the engine. Which is nice because now we can stop flow when throttle closes due to traction control, at redline, in valet mode, when you mapswitch to a nonmeth map, etc,. Before, the only way to enable/disable meth from the cabin was to power off the entire system or just run a boost pressure low enough to never trigger the pump action.

    Shiv"
    --------------------------------------
    "Yes, we are still using that same exact pump for the new design. No problem there.

    I'll also have final pics, pricing and availability in a few days. Just waiting on some parts to be machined. I'll even have an installation video posted soon. It's ridiculously easy to install and remove. Something that can easily be done at a gas station, on the way to the dealership. FWIW, I installed a Procede, DCI and new Meth kit in our car in under 15 minutes with no rushing. Not needing to mount any bottles, electronics or any wires/lines under the car is a HUGE convenience.

    Yes, some people have use washer fluid for injection. While it does contain methanol, it also contains a bunch of detergents which aren't good to run through your engine. So stick with off-the-shelf Boost Juice or mix your own meth/water cocktail instead.

    Yes, it will work on a 135. Exactly the same installation. I've already test fitted our prototype kit in both our 335 n54 and 135 n55.

    We will give the option of using our special-made COMPLETE charge pipe (replacing the entire pipe from throttle body to upper IC pipe) or just adapting their own charge pipe to work. If you choose to do the latter, you will need to install 3 bungs. Two for the nozzles and one from the boost activation switch. The injectors mount close to the elbow portion of the charge pipe giving plenty of time for vaporization.

    And btw, we are now logging CAN liter/hour fuel consumption with the Procede. Makes things like this too easy

    Shiv"
    --------------------------------------
    "You probably don't want to change your set up (original Vishnu meth kit integration) since the new methanol feature uses the same digital output that we use for the nitrous window switch. So if nitrous is in your future, this methanol hardware isn't for you"
    --------------------------------------
    "Yes you can still use a third party nitrous control system. Personally, I'd rather go with upgraded turbo (when available for n55). But to each his own

    I should have pics of the new pipe later this week. You can run either a single or dual nozzle setup. Doesn't matter. Although it makes sense to size the total nozzle flow to something that represents your needs. Using an m10 AND an M7 is pretty generous. But even that wont be a problem with the fixed pressure system. Even at low DC%, the meth will atomize nicely.

    Shiv"
    --------------------------------------
    "Not much to test fit on RHD cars. Just as long as you have your PS steering reservoir currently mounted on the same side as our LHD cars, you'll be good to go."
    --------------------------------------
    "Imagine the nozzles mounted immediately upstream of the valve so that there is virtually no accumulator effect. Effectively making the valve/nozzle combo functionally identical to a coil/pintle in a fuel injector. So when maintaining constant pressure before the valve, you get predictable flow out of the nozzle(s). That's all that matters.

    Shiv"
    Click here to enlarge

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    Thats the HFS-3 valve and flowmeter.
    I guess Shiv has finally seen the light on proper meth/water injection.

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    I like the simplistic approach. Aquamist way of meth has wider range, i.e. is able to deliver very small amount of liquid when needed.

    What I wonder is if the suggested 50/50 with dual M7 is enough for the most heavily modded. Shiv says the system would work for upgraded turbos as well, but I would believe the fueling is not enough with the suggested way.

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    That's a very attractive setup!

  7. #7
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    I like the simplistic approach. Aquamist way of meth has wider range, i.e. is able to deliver very small amount of liquid when needed.

    What I wonder is if the suggested 50/50 with dual M7 is enough for the most heavily modded. Shiv says the system would work for upgraded turbos as well, but I would believe the fueling is not enough with the suggested way.
    Actually that configuration is very limiting. The valve can accept no more than 150psi on the back end and has a very large pressure drop through it, someone told me as high as 80psi, so you wind up with a low injection pressure. This requires very large nozzles to get enough flow. But then atomization at lower flow levels greatly suffers. This arrangement has been tried by all of the major meth makers over the years and only one offers a system featuring it. The pump mounting location is novel though!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry
    Actually that configuration is very limiting. The valve can accept no more than 150psi on the back end and has a very large pressure drop through it, someone told me as high as 80psi, so you wind up with a low injection pressure. This requires very large nozzles to get enough flow. But then atomization at lower flow levels greatly suffers. This arrangement has been tried by all of the major meth makers over the years and only one offers a system featuring it. The pump mounting location is novel though!
    True to form Click here to enlarge

  9. #9
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    I'm not above recognizing novel ideas when I see them! Attached is a photo from one of our customers and beta testers, taken 9/18/2009. I'll let you figure out why he gave up on the "through the cap" meth pickup. Click here to enlarge

    On triggering meth flow from the piggyback I've always been on board with that since I learned the StandBack system could do it years ago. I've configured our JB4 to work the same way only instead of reading the flow sensor directly and PWMing a valve we run an analog I/O pair to the VC2 controller. But who knows maybe we'll change that at some point. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

  10. #10
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    Also what's up with the 50/50 hype? We both know it will make less power than 70/30 or 90/10. Is it a flow sensor limitation or did you just buy stock in "boost juice"?
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 02-09-2011 at 05:32 PM.

  11. #11
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    Regarding the pic, it looks like a great implementation you got there.

  12. #12
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    Like that? In stock and ready to ship for $895. The alligator clips are extra though.

  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Actually that configuration is very limiting. The valve can accept no more than 150psi on the back end and has a very large pressure drop through it, someone told me as high as 80psi, so you wind up with a low injection pressure. This requires very large nozzles to get enough flow. But then atomization at lower flow levels greatly suffers. This arrangement has been tried by all of the major meth makers over the years and only one offers a system featuring it. The pump mounting location is novel though!
    From what I understand this type of setup has been performing very well for the E36 and E46 M guys who are pushing the same to way more power than we are currently. Do you have any specifics on why you wouldn't recommend this config? If it's just a lowered psi thing, we were already using some math to get flow rates at 150psi, so couldn't we just do the same math and adjust our nozzle size?
    Click here to enlarge

  14. #14
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
    From what I understand this type of setup has been performing very well for the E36 and E46 M guys who are pushing the same to way more power than we are currently. Do you have any specifics on why you wouldn't recommend this config? If it's just a lowered psi thing, we were already using some math to get flow rates at 150psi, so couldn't we just do the same math and adjust our nozzle size?
    I haven't tried it myself so can't suggest it one way or the other. But I can say that CM offered a similar setup when we were brainstorming methods for the JB4 to run the methanol control. The JB4 doesn't have the right components to PWM a 10amp meth pump but can PWM a solenoid. So this was discussed as a potential option. Drop the CM controller, PWM the solenoid, run the pump off a relay triggered by the JB4, have the JB4 sample the PWM flow sensor directly, etc.

    The big drawback was the pressure drop through the solenoid. The solenoid at that time also could take no more than 150psi inlet before it would just crack open from pressure. So it would need a different lower pressure pump as well. CM recently told me they found a newer valve that can take up to 200psi. But if the pressure drop is 80psi you're still looking at 80-120psi outlet pressure depending on nozzle size. Which ultimately hurts atomization. Also I was never sold on the benefit aside from some cost savings from dropping the controller. You gain a little response time on tip in but that has never really been a problem with the progressive setup, but you lose potential flow and atomization up top, which has been an issue.

    On the pump pickup, as I said our customer tried it a couple years ago, I did as well, and we were not impressed with the results. But another customer recently emailed with an idea for how we might improve that so I'm willing to give it another shot. The idea of a 20 min install/removal meth kit is very attractive. Although the new 2.7 gallon CM tank offers a very clean and easy install you're still looking at 30-40min.

    Shiv: I'm too lazy to check, how many PWM I/O does the Miniceptor have? Are you running this with an unused port or are you scavenging the VSS I/O?

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jason Click here to enlarge
    I guess Shiv has finally seen the light on proper meth/water injection.
    As opposed to...?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    Edit: Deleted by request of Coolingmist
    This was deleted by you but I restored it simply because you posted info that I feel is pertinent to the users and the topic. If you feel a certain way about the valve, don't hesitate to say so.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This was delete by you but I restored it simply because you posted info that I feel is pertinent to the users and the topic. If you feel a certain way about the valve, don't hesitate to say so.
    You see why I dont want to post on this forum? I knew you would pull this $#@!, You are so predictable.



    LOL

  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    You see why I dont want to post on this forum? I knew you would pull this $#@!, You are so predictable.



    LOL
    Huh? You posted it yourself? Why?

    If you want it removed I will remove it, I don't really understand what you are upset about. If there is something about the valve people should know about that you clearly wanted to share why not share it?

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    2 out of 4 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    If I delete something, I do so for a reason. While my post is 100% true, it does not necessarily apply to the new valve. If I want to restore a post i will do it myself.

    What you are doing is just as bad as E90, they delete posts that are not in there best interest, you restore posts that suit yours.

    CM

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    If I delete something, I do so for a reason. While my post is 100% true, it does not necessarily apply to the new valve. If I want to restore a post i will do it myself.

    What you are doing is just as bad as E90, they delete posts that are not in there best interest, you restore posts that suit yours.

    CM
    You could have easily pm'd and told me your perspective. I wasn't sure why it was deleted and when I read it I thought people should know. Obviously you did as well or you wouldn't have made the post in the first place.

    I don't like deleted content and if you think it is bad to restore posts then I suggest you think it through before you submit. I would rather be labeled as keeping too many posts up rather than deleting too many, thanks.

    You have a PM as I stated and if you wish for your post to be deleted since you are embarrassed to stand by it, no problem, I will accommodate my vendors.

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    I think I made myself clear, but you are going to do what you want anyway.

    CM

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    I think I made myself clear, but you are going to do what you want anyway.
    You should have handled yourself more professionally, all you had to do was communicate. Post deleted, next time think it through.

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    Guys you're losing sight of the reason we're all here in the first place. To bash Vishnu. Please keep the thread on topic. Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  24. #24
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Guys you're losing sight of the reason we're all here in the first place. To bash Vishnu. Please keep the thread on topic. Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Humorous Terry, but there is no desire at least on this side of the keyboard to bash Vishnu.

    I simply believe in placing users above vendors, no offense to you, and if there is an issue with a product users deserve to be informed. Simple as that, now I guess this can continue.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Just lightening the mood a bit. Actually always interested in meth and fueling discussions. May pickup some good info we can use down the line.

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