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    Horsepower Freaks (HPF) Stage 4 E46 M3 S54 turbo puts down 925 whp

    First of, congratulations. Closing in on 1k hp at the wheels with an HPF Stage 4 setup is no small feat. Horsepowerfreaks has been advertising this as 970 whp which is what the car did put down uncorrected. The SAE corrected numbers are 925 whp and what we will go with. This car belongs to someone named Jason and it is a very, very impressive car.

    Click here to enlarge

    Uncorrected:

    Click here to enlarge

    Video:

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    crazy numbers for an e46 m3
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yukohama Click here to enlarge
    crazy numbers for an e46 m3
    The S54 could do some ridiculous things if we had more people pushing it.
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    Sick car. The owner posted on e46f that he wont run it on the track because too much can go wrong, but he went from stage 3 to stage 4 because his car didn't pull a stage 2.75 on the street.......ummm.....yeah....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 930chas Click here to enlarge
    Sick car. The owner posted on e46f that he wont run it on the track because too much can go wrong, but he went from stage 3 to stage 4 because his car didn't pull a stage 2.75 on the street.......ummm.....yeah....
    Ya, that made me wonder. He wants more power because of a race outcome yet he won't run it on the track? So just for street racing?
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    Maybe I'm blind but i didn't see anywhere in that thread about the track.
    Maybe I missed it.

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    its $#@!ing insane, in from 4k rpm to 7k rpm it jumps 500 whp. that is one crazy ass power band. i need a ride in this $#@! badly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Maybe I'm blind but i didn't see anywhere in that thread about the track.
    Maybe I missed it.
    It was in a different thread.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ya, that made me wonder. He wants more power because of a race outcome yet he won't run it on the track? So just for street racing?
    he may have been talking specifically about the drag strip that he wanted to avoid with respect to breaking driveline components on launch.. that seems kind of dumb though if you guys are right and he literally wants to avoid any and all tracks with that kind of power

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nickr519 Click here to enlarge
    he may have been talking specifically about the drag strip that he wanted to avoid with respect to breaking driveline components on launch
    Yep, I can understand that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nickr519 Click here to enlarge
    that seems kind of dumb though if you guys are right and he literally wants to avoid any and all tracks with that kind of power
    He clearly wants to race... so he can do some 60-130 times at least I would think.
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    $#@!ty powerband but nice power

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by gringotegra Click here to enlarge
    $#@!ty powerband but nice power
    Not like big power Supras look better.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The S54 could do some ridiculous things if we had more people pushing it.
    I think the problem is they are very expensive to obtain and maintain by comparison. I would most definitely be looking into one if it wasnt for that. I already own a s38 and that is expensive to maintain so i dont want another S motor for now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    its $#@!ing insane, in from 4k rpm to 7k rpm it jumps 500 whp. that is one crazy ass power band. i need a ride in this $#@! badly.
    Actually, its more like crazy peak power because it only levels out near peak power for ~1000 rpm. Now if it were near peak power @ 4k and held it to 7k, it would have a crazy power band.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by gringotegra Click here to enlarge
    $#@!ty powerband but nice power
    I disagree, and I'm surprised that you would say that.

    It has over 600rwtq from 5500 to 8000 RPM, which is a pretty fat torque band. Match the gear ratios up, and you'll see that the shift points fall within this powerband for every gear. The only tough thing would be launching, but I think that's more an issue of driver skill than anything else. (Most people have no idea how to slip a clutch, I know you know what I mean)

    That said, I have known for a long time that the "bottleneck" of the HPF systems is the flow rate of the Meth system. If they could increase the meth delivery, we'd see more power above 7000 RPM in everything from Stage 2 to Stage 4 kits. The only way I can see them doing this is by adding a second Meth stage. (The pump is pretty much maxed out with what they are doing now) On race cars, I've seen an average of 13% difference in HP between race fuel and Meth....the power is in the fuel.

    Edit: The HPF kits are also probably at the limit of what a single point of meth injection can safely deliver evenly cylinder to cylinder. I think the best path of delivery for serious power would be a second fuel rail for meth and injectors mounted at the top of each runner. That's a pretty expensive project though, as the existing ECU I dont think can handle staged injection and 12 injectors. So...direct port Meth would be the more practical way to deliver the meth evenly between cylinders. Might take 2 three cylinder systems to deliver the volume for a Stage 4 car though....

    I think I may scare HPF guys a little bit with my posts...they rarely respond to any of my comments. LOL I totally respect what they are doing though.
    Last edited by PEI330Ci; 02-10-2011 at 04:36 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    The only way I can see them doing this is by adding a second Meth stage. (The pump is pretty much maxed out with what they are doing now)
    Why can't they use a different pump than the one they are now?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lughed Click here to enlarge
    I think the problem is they are very expensive to obtain and maintain by comparison. I would most definitely be looking into one if it wasnt for that. I already own a s38 and that is expensive to maintain so i dont want another S motor for now.
    The S38 is a whole different league, way more expensive to maintain but actually arguably a better turbo platform. More displacement, easier tuning, more options, etc.

    The problem with the S54 is there is only one option, HPF. Nothing against them, it just hurts us as costs stay up and we don't see the competition we do in the S50 sector.

    You ever post details on your S38?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by gringotegra Click here to enlarge
    $#@!ty powerband but nice power
    yeah you have nothing against hpf, just the owners. for sure. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lughed Click here to enlarge
    Actually, its more like crazy peak power because it only levels out near peak power for ~1000 rpm. Now if it were near peak power @ 4k and held it to 7k, it would have a crazy power band.
    thank you for the clarification!
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    I believe I saw that this car is now getting a wide body like the other Stage 4 cars, power is a bit unusable without it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mbowdo20 Click here to enlarge
    I believe I saw that this car is now getting a wide body like the other Stage 4 cars, power is a bit unusable without it.
    Yes it is, I'm wondering if they strengthen the rear end at all with these as well?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why can't they use a different pump than the one they are now?
    There really aren't many options on the market for pump that will handle pure meth. Most of the different brands look to be re-badged pieces of the same product, and the specs are very similar. For example, the Shurflo unit that is also sold as an FJO piece.

    There is a video where HPF says that they inject 1200cc/min of meth when the system activates, which is higher than the flow gauge they were promoting which shows flow up to 1000cc/min. Then later in the same video they show a pull on the dyno with the flow gauage, dash cluster, and a fuel pressure gauge. During this pull, you can see the fuel pressure increase from a 40psi base under vacuum/idle, to 74psi at what is listed as peak boost of 30psi. This makes sense, as the FPR being used is boost referenced. So I can see from the fuel pressure gauge what the boost pressure is in reference to RPM on the dash cluster. Now....during the pull the Meth gauge pegs to 1000cc then drops as boost pressure increases. This also makes sense, as the pump I think that is being used (Shurflo) will flow more than the 1200cc @ the rated 125psi, but when you increase manifold pressure to 30psi, the flow rate will drop because of increased back pressure. The flow rate is effectively whatever the pump will deliver at 95 psi.

    1200cc/min of meth is about 96hp worth of fuel if you were running an engine only on meth. If you were to change the output pressure of the pump to 95psi, without changing the jetting and meth delivery system, flow should drop to approximately 1050cc/min, or 84hp worth. The general rule of thumb with meth injection is to inject meth volume at a ratio of about 20-25% of the gasoline flow. If this ratio was being followed, 1200cc matches up with about 920chp worth of fuel system running gasoline, or a combined power potential of 1016chp worth of fuel. (About 860rwhp)

    In the formentioned video, the gauge appears to drop to 950cc/min above 5000RPM...and then down to 850cc/min as the RPM swings past 7000 RPM. Lets say the delivery is 950cc/min, with a 22% meth injection ratio, that a total power potential of 76chp for the meth and 920 for the fuel system, which is 996chp. (845rwhp)

    There is a new Aquatec pump that is rated for 165psi with similar flow potential, and this may also be used by HPF. The key thing to remember is that you need 4 times the pressure to double flow. So a pressure drop from 165psi to 135psi for example wouldn't be as dramatic a change in flow as from 125psi down to 95psi.

    What I'm getting at here is that it's a combination of pump, delivery system, and jetting. I suspect from the dyno video I previous mentioned that they are maxing out the existing meth system. Increasing the jetting reduces droplet size, and that isn't good for any fuel. The idea is to minimize droplet size, and that's why high pressure pumps are used for good meth systems to start with.

    I think HPF chose a good system of parts to start with, but they may have outgrown the flow of the meth system. I also think they would make even more power with say the stage 2 kits on the top end if there was more meth being injected...but that's just an opinion unsubstantiated by any testing on my part.

    I guess I haven't really answered you question huh? There are some bigger pumps available, but they are racing units that require you to drain the meth from the system after use making them impractical for a daily driver. The existing pumps are pretty well it for daily drivers....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    There really aren't many options on the market for pump that will handle pure meth. Most of the different brands look to be re-badged pieces of the same product, and the specs are very similar. For example, the Shurflo unit that is also sold as an FJO piece.

    There is a video where HPF says that they inject 1200cc/min of meth when the system activates, which is higher than the flow gauge they were promoting which shows flow up to 1000cc/min. Then later in the same video they show a pull on the dyno with the flow gauage, dash cluster, and a fuel pressure gauge. During this pull, you can see the fuel pressure increase from a 40psi base under vacuum/idle, to 74psi at what is listed as peak boost of 30psi. This makes sense, as the FPR being used is boost referenced. So I can see from the fuel pressure gauge what the boost pressure is in reference to RPM on the dash cluster. Now....during the pull the Meth gauge pegs to 1000cc then drops as boost pressure increases. This also makes sense, as the pump I think that is being used (Shurflo) will flow more than the 1200cc @ the rated 125psi, but when you increase manifold pressure to 30psi, the flow rate will drop because of increased back pressure. The flow rate is effectively whatever the pump will deliver at 95 psi.

    1200cc/min of meth is about 96hp worth of fuel if you were running an engine only on meth. If you were to change the output pressure of the pump to 95psi, without changing the jetting and meth delivery system, flow should drop to approximately 1050cc/min, or 84hp worth. The general rule of thumb with meth injection is to inject meth volume at a ratio of about 20-25% of the gasoline flow. If this ratio was being followed, 1200cc matches up with about 920chp worth of fuel system running gasoline, or a combined power potential of 1016chp worth of fuel. (About 860rwhp)

    In the formentioned video, the gauge appears to drop to 950cc/min above 5000RPM...and then down to 850cc/min as the RPM swings past 7000 RPM. Lets say the delivery is 950cc/min, with a 22% meth injection ratio, that a total power potential of 76chp for the meth and 920 for the fuel system, which is 996chp. (845rwhp)

    There is a new Aquatec pump that is rated for 165psi with similar flow potential, and this may also be used by HPF. The key thing to remember is that you need 4 times the pressure to double flow. So a pressure drop from 165psi to 135psi for example wouldn't be as dramatic a change in flow as from 125psi down to 95psi.

    What I'm getting at here is that it's a combination of pump, delivery system, and jetting. I suspect from the dyno video I previous mentioned that they are maxing out the existing meth system. Increasing the jetting reduces droplet size, and that isn't good for any fuel. The idea is to minimize droplet size, and that's why high pressure pumps are used for good meth systems to start with.

    I think HPF chose a good system of parts to start with, but they may have outgrown the flow of the meth system. I also think they would make even more power with say the stage 2 kits on the top end if there was more meth being injected...but that's just an opinion unsubstantiated by any testing on my part.

    I guess I haven't really answered you question huh? There are some bigger pumps available, but they are racing units that require you to drain the meth from the system after use making them impractical for a daily driver. The existing pumps are pretty well it for daily drivers....
    You provided more than enough info to answer the question I think, quality post that I enjoyed reading.

    Why do the racing units require you to drain the meth from the system yet the pumps being used do not?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You provided more than enough info to answer the question I think, quality post that I enjoyed reading.

    Why do the racing units require you to drain the meth from the system yet the pumps being used do not?
    Thanks.

    I guess I should clarify that they are high volume pumps often used for racing, not specifically pumps for racing. The reason why they need to be drained is that meth is really corrosive on internal metal parts if they aren't stainless. Aluminum for example gets eaten by meth....

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    Best post I've read in a LONG time, great info!




    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    There really aren't many options on the market for pump that will handle pure meth. Most of the different brands look to be re-badged pieces of the same product, and the specs are very similar. For example, the Shurflo unit that is also sold as an FJO piece.

    There is a video where HPF says that they inject 1200cc/min of meth when the system activates, which is higher than the flow gauge they were promoting which shows flow up to 1000cc/min. Then later in the same video they show a pull on the dyno with the flow gauage, dash cluster, and a fuel pressure gauge. During this pull, you can see the fuel pressure increase from a 40psi base under vacuum/idle, to 74psi at what is listed as peak boost of 30psi. This makes sense, as the FPR being used is boost referenced. So I can see from the fuel pressure gauge what the boost pressure is in reference to RPM on the dash cluster. Now....during the pull the Meth gauge pegs to 1000cc then drops as boost pressure increases. This also makes sense, as the pump I think that is being used (Shurflo) will flow more than the 1200cc @ the rated 125psi, but when you increase manifold pressure to 30psi, the flow rate will drop because of increased back pressure. The flow rate is effectively whatever the pump will deliver at 95 psi.

    1200cc/min of meth is about 96hp worth of fuel if you were running an engine only on meth. If you were to change the output pressure of the pump to 95psi, without changing the jetting and meth delivery system, flow should drop to approximately 1050cc/min, or 84hp worth. The general rule of thumb with meth injection is to inject meth volume at a ratio of about 20-25% of the gasoline flow. If this ratio was being followed, 1200cc matches up with about 920chp worth of fuel system running gasoline, or a combined power potential of 1016chp worth of fuel. (About 860rwhp)

    In the formentioned video, the gauge appears to drop to 950cc/min above 5000RPM...and then down to 850cc/min as the RPM swings past 7000 RPM. Lets say the delivery is 950cc/min, with a 22% meth injection ratio, that a total power potential of 76chp for the meth and 920 for the fuel system, which is 996chp. (845rwhp)

    There is a new Aquatec pump that is rated for 165psi with similar flow potential, and this may also be used by HPF. The key thing to remember is that you need 4 times the pressure to double flow. So a pressure drop from 165psi to 135psi for example wouldn't be as dramatic a change in flow as from 125psi down to 95psi.

    What I'm getting at here is that it's a combination of pump, delivery system, and jetting. I suspect from the dyno video I previous mentioned that they are maxing out the existing meth system. Increasing the jetting reduces droplet size, and that isn't good for any fuel. The idea is to minimize droplet size, and that's why high pressure pumps are used for good meth systems to start with.

    I think HPF chose a good system of parts to start with, but they may have outgrown the flow of the meth system. I also think they would make even more power with say the stage 2 kits on the top end if there was more meth being injected...but that's just an opinion unsubstantiated by any testing on my part.

    I guess I haven't really answered you question huh? There are some bigger pumps available, but they are racing units that require you to drain the meth from the system after use making them impractical for a daily driver. The existing pumps are pretty well it for daily drivers....

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