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  1. #1
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    Sudden Very Rough Idle

    Need some help diagnosing an issue. Went out to my car at lunch and car felt like it was missing, maybe like a coil was bad. Got it home and started swapping parts. Changed all the plugs and coils on bank 2. Still having very rough startup and not really driveable.

    Did walnut blast 3K ago, never swapped injectors think I have a mix of index 7 & 8. HPFP was done about 20K ago.

    Got the below codes currently

    29D0 - misfire cyl 4
    29D1 - misfire cyl 5
    29CC - multiple cyl misfire
    2E1C - firing cyl 5

    Could an injector just go that quickly? Car ran 100% fine this morning.

  2. #2
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    Forgot to mention, there is a strong smell of gas when starting the car.

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    Pull the plugs smell/inspect the tips. Leaky injectors causes sooty, gas smelling plugs. Two injectors going bad at the same moment is not that likely tho. Clear the codes and restart. Is it the same cylinders missing every time?

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    The plugs were wet with gas before I swapped them, both 4 & 5. 5 not as much as 4 I guess.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by psychosinmylobby Click here to enlarge
    Pull the plugs smell/inspect the tips. Leaky injectors causes sooty, gas smelling plugs. Two injectors going bad at the same moment is not that likely tho. Clear the codes and restart. Is it the same cylinders missing every time?
    Yes, cleared codes several times and retried. Just tried swapping coils again and same issue. This couldn't be battery related could it? Battery is 5 years old. Last time I tried to start it, pushed the button nothing happened for a sec, then it stumbled and started. The only reason I ask is because it was very cold at lunch today - 15*F and that could make it harder on the battery. No light or anything. Is there an easy way to measure voltage?

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    Same cylinders missing? I doubt it's the battery. You wouldn't be able to start it if it is.

    Easiest way to find battery voltage is via the BC stalk hidden menu:

    http://e90.wikifoundry-mobile.com/m/...C+hidden+menus

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    I do have an odd bouncing idle and some other issues. Measured battery voltage using the hidden menu is 11.3V. Seems pretty low?

    Yes same cylinders missing.

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    Swapped some coils from working cylinders this time (and not spares). New code list after clearing and idling.

    29F1 - fuel pump plausibility
    29D0 - misfire cyl 4

    I get the half engine light after maybe 15 sec, strong gas smell. HPFP? I dont have a long crank at all.

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    For HPFP failure, I'd expect the miss to move around. Looks like the Cylinder 4 might have a bad injector. Swap the injector to another cylinder and see it the failure follows.

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    I have one spare injector. I am going to replace on cylinder 4 tomorrow and see what happens.

    I was able to get INPA set up thanks to Vasillalov's DIY so I can code it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mj6234 Click here to enlarge
    I have one spare injector. I am going to replace on cylinder 4 tomorrow and see what happens.

    I was able to get INPA set up thanks to Vasillalov's DIY so I can code it.
    If you have inpa then based upon the codes you're getting, measure the hpfp pressure during a drive and go into the rough running menu and monitor your cylinder activity during idle to identify what is happening, it sounds like you have all the right tools to identify this problem.
    335I 398bhp, Mfactory LSD, 7.5" fmic

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    So this makes me feel not great. I came home, did the FuelIt LPFP/HPFP test, all seemed fine. Restarted the car to do the rough running menu, then the car started up fine. Lambda voltages were consistent between banks. Drove the car around the block and shut it off. While I was driving, the rough running menu stayed in the green for all cylinders. No misfire, no bucking. I did smell gas, but assuming that was maybe residual from yesterdays incident.

    So is there something that sticks in the ECU around recent running conditions that would be wiped out by the car going to sleep? That is all I can think of.

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    Lol should make you feel great! Problem went away by itself.

    You should sniff your engine oil for fuel smell. If there was some fuel related issue in the cylinders, excess fuel can dilute your oil. This can cause spun bearings etc.

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    I've had this once recently. Misfire on 3 cylinders, stopped car, and it was lumpy idling, misfire codes, I booted my laptop which was taking an unusual length of time so turned the car off. Opened rough running menu, restarted and the car ran fine, problem never came back. Logged fuel pressures and all was normal.
    Personally I wouldn't go replacing injectors just guessing. I think swapping between cylinders is the way to go and see if the misfire follows the cylinder. If the misfire reappears of course.
    335I 398bhp, Mfactory LSD, 7.5" fmic

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    i have similar issue with my car, but it also comes from time to time with Fuel micture control 2 and misfirings in 4 , 6.
    so i also have strong smell of gas, i think issue with O2 sensor, i will replace it in upcoming days...
    YOU CAN!

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    I think yours den is more likely to be an injector. The mixture errors I believe appear when one injector is leaking, causing that bank to go rich. The car winds back fueling of the 3 injectors on that bank in attempt to correct the mixture but realises the non leaking injectors in that bank are almost turned off compensating for the one leaking injector, but the afr ratio is still not leaning out.
    I heard to test this get up to say 50mph, with logging on both bank 1 and 2 afr and in gear, decelerate. Both banks should go over 200. If one is slow to rise, or never hits 200, that bank has a leaky injector.
    335I 398bhp, Mfactory LSD, 7.5" fmic

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by threetirtyfive Click here to enlarge
    I think yours den is more likely to be an injector. The mixture errors I believe appear when one injector is leaking, causing that bank to go rich. The car winds back fueling of the 3 injectors on that bank in attempt to correct the mixture but realises the non leaking injectors in that bank are almost turned off compensating for the one leaking injector, but the afr ratio is still not leaning out.
    I heard to test this get up to say 50mph, with logging on both bank 1 and 2 afr and in gear, decelerate. Both banks should go over 200. If one is slow to rise, or never hits 200, that bank has a leaky injector.
    I see.
    however when i disconnect o2 sensor from bank 2 i stop receiving the errors and engine start working good. I understand it is wrong though

    Btw, i have new injectors installed last summer, revision 12
    YOU CAN!

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    What is the afr doing on bank 2? I think u need to establish whether it is reporting correctly an afr thats all over the shop causing the engine to run badly or if it is the actual sensor. On mine the ecu correctly identified a bad lambda sensor. If you don't have that code not sure it's that.
    335I 398bhp, Mfactory LSD, 7.5" fmic

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mj6234 Click here to enlarge
    So this makes me feel not great. I came home, did the FuelIt LPFP/HPFP test, all seemed fine. Restarted the car to do the rough running menu, then the car started up fine. Lambda voltages were consistent between banks. Drove the car around the block and shut it off. While I was driving, the rough running menu stayed in the green for all cylinders. No misfire, no bucking. I did smell gas, but assuming that was maybe residual from yesterdays incident.

    So is there something that sticks in the ECU around recent running conditions that would be wiped out by the car going to sleep? That is all I can think of.
    So this is just resolve and gone permanently now? By itself?

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So this is just resolve and gone permanently now? By itself?
    Well I did swap coils and plugs. The misfire was pretty bad. Like not something you'd want to drive on. I dont know why it didnt immediately fix itself after swapping the bad parts. I just started the car again and it was fine. Didnt drive it otherwise today. I have a feeling this story is not over.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mj6234 Click here to enlarge
    Well I did swap coils and plugs. The misfire was pretty bad. Like not something you'd want to drive on. I dont know why it didnt immediately fix itself after swapping the bad parts. I just started the car again and it was fine. Didnt drive it otherwise today. I have a feeling this story is not over.
    I had a nearly identical issue on a bad injector where it would come up once or twice a month during summer. The rough idle would always come back when it was near freezing overnight and at times it was bad enough to stall. I pulled the plugs one morning before starting the car and it was obviously leaking by the wet plug on cyl 1.

    Interestingly enough I was able to clear the rough idle very quickly most mornings by simply clearing codes with my phone or JB4. As I was driving I would clear codes and the car immediately went from feeling like it was on 5 cylinders to a smooth drive with proper AFR too.

  22. #22
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by threetirtyfive Click here to enlarge
    What is the afr doing on bank 2? I think u need to establish whether it is reporting correctly an afr thats all over the shop causing the engine to run badly or if it is the actual sensor. On mine the ecu correctly identified a bad lambda sensor. If you don't have that code not sure it's that.
    as per JB4 mobile, the AFR2 readings are locked at 20 and i can reset it by deleting codes. anyway i already ordered pair of O2 sensors...
    when i disconnect it shows something like 16-17, which is apparently default value dme sets when wires cut
    YOU CAN!

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by XGM Click here to enlarge
    I had a nearly identical issue on a bad injector where it would come up once or twice a month during summer. The rough idle would always come back when it was near freezing overnight and at times it was bad enough to stall. I pulled the plugs one morning before starting the car and it was obviously leaking by the wet plug on cyl 1.

    Interestingly enough I was able to clear the rough idle very quickly most mornings by simply clearing codes with my phone or JB4. As I was driving I would clear codes and the car immediately went from feeling like it was on 5 cylinders to a smooth drive with proper AFR too.
    Really interesting. I am nearly certain it is cyl 4 for me that caused all of this. Another variable that correlates with your similar issue is the temperature. It was 15*F when I had the issue, car started up in my 62*F garage fine. When I restarted it after swapping parts, it was in my garage again so same 62*F.

    Before I put all the covers and crap back on, I will repull the cyl 4 plug and see if it is wet with gas or not. If it is, I might just go ahead and swap the spare injector I have. I guess I just need to man up and by a new set of index 12s. I have 5 7s and 1 8 now. Even the spare I have is a 9.

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    I went ahead and changed my oil as a precaution from gas contamination. Drove the car around about 10mi on map 4. Definitely had some amount of gas in the exhausts, but burned off as soon as the car got hot. Really all seemed fine. Didn't WOT it yet. If anything else comes up, I will come back here and post whatever the end state ends up being.
    This car drives me crazy. Maybe I should push it in the river and buy a Ford.

    Did NOT change injector on cyl 4 as the plug seemed normal. WHO KNOWS.
    Last edited by mj6234; 01-07-2017 at 05:22 PM. Reason: More Info

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mj6234 Click here to enlarge
    I went ahead and changed my oil as a precaution from gas contamination. Drove the car around about 10mi on map 4. Definitely had some amount of gas in the exhausts, but burned off as soon as the car got hot. Really all seemed fine. Didn't WOT it yet. If anything else comes up, I will come back here and post whatever the end state ends up being.
    This car drives me crazy. Maybe I should push it in the river and buy a Ford.

    Did NOT change injector on cyl 4 as the plug seemed normal. WHO KNOWS.
    Now the car runs, you can do some logs to see if there are any residual symptoms. Otherwise, there is nothing you can do until your car becomes symptomatic again.

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