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View Poll Results: Has BMW slipped up in enthusiasts eyes vs. Mercedes?

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  • BMW has not slipped, it is better than ever.

    15 39.47%
  • BMW has slipped while Mercedes has gotten stronger.

    23 60.53%
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  1. #26
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    BMW has announced the next generation M3 will have a 6 cylinder. While they are downsizing Mercedes is sticking a V8 in everything.
    BOOO... BMW needs N/A V10 in the new m3 FTW

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    Bi turbo s54 wouldn't be so bad in the next m3... Make it revv out to 9k and they should have mb beat
    JB4LIFE

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    Bi turbo s54 wouldn't be so bad in the next m3... Make it revv out to 9k and they should have mb beat
    Make it rev out to 9k, a dream, how about them just making it not embarrass itself vs. any mercedes twin turbo with a performance package?

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    i know he's either loved or hated but i think the bangle years were the high watermark for bmw. i've always hated merc styling but with the lineup they have today and some of the power they have striaght from the factory its hard not to fall in love. i feel bmw (and audi to a lesser extent) strayed from the path while merc has found their way back. and maybe thats what helped them was getting their 'hippie' phase out of their system early whereas the other two are just now getting into their prius mode.

  5. #30
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    When a comparably priced Benz can consistently beat their BMW counterpart around the tracks and not just straightline performance, I might be willing to admit they're the enthusiast's choice.

    Edit: Just read through the thread and Doug007 said it best.
    Last edited by Stahlgrau; 01-22-2011 at 09:41 AM.

  6. #31
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    BMW has (almost) never had real sports cars. However, M3 has always been, and will always be faster than C-class. That is thee big picture. BMW laps quicker.

    Mercedes has had some limited series very expensive models, and yes, currently more then before. Those are marginal products, and actually slow compared to their price. GTR beats every humangously expensive SLS or Black series in Nordschleife. That is because Mercedes is not able to produce a real sports car with low weight even despite having the cars so expensive that some weight reduction should be possible for that money.

    When it comes who makes the smallest cars, there is no comparison. Mercedes by large margin. They produce cars that are among the smallest in the world. I hope BMW will do the same in the future.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    When a comparably priced Benz can consistently beat their BMW counterpart around the tracks and not just straightline performance, I might be willing to admit they're the enthusiast's choice.

    Edit: Just read through the thread and Doug007 said it best.
    +1, but they never will Click here to enlarge

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    BMW has (almost) never had real sports cars. However, M3 has always been, and will always be faster than C-class. That is thee big picture. BMW laps quicker.
    This has traditionally been the case but with the black series Mercedes erased this advantage. With the C-class coupe black series coming I think it may shift to being the other way around.

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  9. #34
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    i don't see how enthusiasts can stand by bmw when you consider they're slapping ///M badges on soccer mobiles and solar panels on executive models. 654 said it right. merc makes big power but is too heavy. AMG should steal M's engineering team while they're being ignored by the bmw marketing department, lol.

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    As far as readily available (not changing engine management, turbos, cams, etc) power or what's given from the factory with just tuning and/or bolt-ons I think MB is scoring easy win's the same way Chevy did when they introduced the LS1/LS6 in the F-body's vs the NA 4.6L 4V's in comparable Mustangs (pre 03/04 Cobra) '98-'02. Just too many inches to overcome N/A and not enough rpm to do it; AMG gives 50% more displacement from the factory which equates to significantly higher torque across the board--I wouldn't doubt that in a stock for stock comparison a M156 makes more torque at idle or just off it than a S65 does at peak. Looks to be more of the same in the future, especially in the case of the C-Class vs M3.

    The downside of being a MB/AMG fan (other than subjective measures such as design, etc) are the transmissions. Long story short (as it's been a hot topic lately) BMW still owns the segment in this category.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dreikraft Click here to enlarge
    i don't see how enthusiasts can stand by bmw when you consider they're slapping ///M badges on soccer mobiles and solar panels on executive models. 654 said it right. merc makes big power but is too heavy. AMG should steal M's engineering team while they're being ignored by the bmw marketing department, lol.
    Well said.

    Keep in mind though, Mercedes is trying hard to put lighter weight/hardcore models.

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  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    The downside of being a MB/AMG fan (other than subjective measures such as design, etc) are the transmissions. Long story short (as it's been a hot topic lately) BMW still owns the segment in this category.
    This is the key but is going to be become a moot point when everyone is churning out DCT's.

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    I remember reading a couple years back BMW Motorsport chief saying they try to keep the torque down to enable weight savings in transmission as the hp and weight are what matters in top performance.

    However, there is also demand for high torque applications as it makes the lazy daily driving comfortable.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    I remember reading a couple years back BMW Motorsport chief saying they try to keep the torque down to enable weight savings in transmission as the hp and weight are what matters in top performance.
    I believe he may have said that but that is not how it happened whatsoever. A DCT weighs much more than a manual that can handle more torque. I really don't think weight savings are their main priority, I think that is just a cop-out because they were losing the power war to Mercedes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This has traditionally been the case but with the black series Mercedes erased this advantage. With the C-class coupe black series coming I think it may shift to being the other way around.
    That will be a special model that likely won't be anywhere close to the price point of a standard M3. And I'm sure if BMW brought the CSL back, it'd be a wrap.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    That will be a special model that likely won't be anywhere close to the price point of a standard M3. And I'm sure if BMW brought the CSL back, it'd be a wrap.
    Well, the GTS really isn't all that impressive. Plus, it isn't cheap, and either way, it would be outgunned vs. the C as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well, the GTS really isn't all that impressive. Plus, it isn't cheap, and either way, it would be outgunned vs. the C as well.

    I'm not sure, but isn't E92 M3 faster around the 'Ring than one of these Black Series?

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    I'm not sure, but isn't E92 M3 faster around the 'Ring than one of these Black Series?
    Mercedes claims a 7:52 which for the CLK63 but it has lapped as fast as 7:45 back in 2007 which is ahead of anything BMW has produced: http://petrolsmell.com/2010/04/20/nu...est-lap-times/

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    Well then, I was mistaken. Sounds like BMW better get their $#@! together, although the Black Series isn't really comparable to anything BMW makes. It'll be interesting to see what they do with these TT sixes for the next M3.

    They need to bring back the CSL.

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    Sounds like BMW better get their $#@! together, although the Black Series isn't really comparable to anything BMW makes
    Exactly, that is the problem. Mercedes makes more hardcore drivers cars than BMW, how the hell did that happen?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
    They need to bring back the CSL.
    They cancelled it for the M SUV's but I agree, would be nice. Although the GTS basically is that but I feel BMW only made it to try to shut the enthusiasts up. Considering we can't get it, it might as well not exist.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    That is because Mercedes is not able to produce a real sports car with low weight even despite having the cars so expensive that some weight reduction should be possible for that money.
    Not able and CHOOSING not to are 2 very different things. If any joe shmo can throw carbon fiber parts made in Taiwan on a car to lose weight, you really think that MB is "not able" to do this?

    And I actually hate the new MB styling besides the C63 which should have came from the factory with wider rear quarter panels to match the front fenders. What the 63 motors ae doing with just bolt ons is nothing short of amazing!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blackbenzz Click here to enlarge
    Not able and CHOOSING not to are 2 very different things. If any joe shmo can throw carbon fiber parts made in Taiwan on a car to lose weight, you really think that MB is "not able" to do this?

    And I actually hate the new MB styling besides the C63 which should have came from the factory with wider rear quarter panels to match the front fenders. What the 63 motors ae doing with just bolt ons is nothing short of amazing!

    That goes both ways, really. Anyone can design big displacement motors with big power. BMW chooses to make their power differently and for different purposes.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with big power, big displacement motors. Just saying the cars aren't quite aimed at the same customers, in my opinion.

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    BMW wons the technologic war against MB.

    But in the end that do not gain nothing to BMW
    since MB have the aquired right of selling more
    expensive cars with way bigger engines...with
    forced induction...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    Performance is a lot more than throwing the biggest engine you can find in your smallest car (not saying it isn't fun. It's a classic combo from shelby cobras to GTOs).

    BMW is still the top dog when it comes to a balanced car. M3s still win comparison tests against the C63. To quote from a comparison test "Next to the C63 and RS 4, this latest M3 offers the purest, least diluted, most involving, and best-in-class driver-and-machine relationship. Those characteristics are what made the M3 great, and they're still evident in a faster and more refined package."

    That is why BMW is great plain and simple.

    I think Mercedes has stepped up more than BMW has slipped. For years, enthusiasts would just laugh at a the thought of buying a benz. They were soft luxo couches for the autobahn. Not any more.

    BMW still sets the standard for sport sedans. They have some work to do in the hp race but nothing twin turbo v8s can't solve Click here to enlarge
    This

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    What it is, is that BMW is chasing Mercedes in the luxury departement so their building the cars softer they way Mercedes have been successful. For Mercedes, its the opposite. Their chasing BMW in the performance departement, so their building the cars to be faster and harder.

    The real problem imo is Mercedes has a hardcore following. BMW does to but to say you own a Mercedes, for Mercedes is enough to draw a larger cumsumer base. BMW is now building cars to please everyone in every category in order to draw a larger consumer base. In the process BMW has gone away from what made them the best imo.

    IMO Mercedes is building cars with big engines and such but they still are not on par with all around performance. Mercedes = German muscle car when it comes to performance.

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