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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
    His user name is 'Alan l.'
    That makes it easier lol.

  2. #52
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    Alan Lam is a customer of mine. We go back to the days of Ultima Performance/Ultima Technik. Just about 9 years ago. He started off with an E46 and progressed to this.

  3. #53
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    lol
    Lets also not forget about the cyl 1 failures, a la maxboost and his procede Click here to enlarge

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Lets also not forget about the cyl 1 failures, a la maxboost and his procede Click here to enlarge
    yeah and lets not forget cyl 2 and 5 failures a la JB3 year 2010 .
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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  5. #55
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I thought it was another irritating thread over there but I guess the powers that be decided to chime in.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv
    We have only offered the Procede for n54/n55 applications. It has never been offered for Subaru/Evo applications. That said, I think there are many reasons why you are seeing what you are seeing. I'll name a few.

    1) Piggybacks in other markets have never been as sophisticated as the Procede. Primarily, they have always been limited by the number of input channels. The Procede has no such limitations since it gets most of it's sensor data from the CAN network. The more useful inputs channels, the better the control of the engine. I don't know of any other piggyback that did this prior to the Procede. The piggybacks that both Cobb Tuning and I used in the past (long time ago) did little more than (barely) offset CPS signals and attenuate MAF and MAP voltages as a function of RPM and Load.

    2) Because of how they are implemented, Piggybacks can't do a few things, such as properly scaling for upgraded fuel injectors or raise rev limiters. With the n54, there is no need to upgrade fuel injectors since the DI fuel injection system has over 200hp worth of extra capacity. Other tuning platforms aren't so lucky. And since no one is building engines with upgraded internals and giant single turbos, there hasn't been a need to run rev limits higher than 7000rpm. And even that is higher than necessary given the power curve with this engine. So these limitations aren't very limiting in this market.

    3) Usually, traditional piggybacks can only implement an offset to fuel, load and ignition values. Which is fine unless the DME gets updated with new calibration data during dealership visits. Which is often the case. However, with the Procede, actual lambda, DME load and ignition advance values are measured and accounted for in absolute terms, not in offsets. So the only variance between cars will come from variances between sensors calibrations-- which all tuning methods will be subject to. It also helps that the BMW had s closed loop fuel control system which is self-corrective to a very wide range. This is why you can "get away" with even the most crude form of engine controls and not be offended. And when it's done right, it feels as good as it could possibly be.

    4) In a few other markets, flash tuning is very well developed. This is usually the case with Japanese car manufacturers who don't go as far as the Germans do when it comes to hiding how the DME works and were map locations are. It also helps that some markets enjoy open source ROM editing systems that cost a whopping $80 to purchase and a couple email conversions to get a good starting map. Throw a few hundred clever programmers who do this for fun (and not to make money) and you get a lot of ongoing development which is the case with the Evo/Subaru market. And you get native methanol injection control with failsafes, realtime mapswitching, external MAP sensor conversions, anti-lag, adjusable 2 steps, traction control mapping, nitrous control, etc,. By comparison, current n54 flashes can't even control boost properly over a normal range of hardware variance. Nor does it seem that they been able to properly isolate basic PID control logic. And it was only until recently were they even able to run more than 14psi. So it's a very different world. The world does evolve. But only over time.

    5) Flash times on Evo/Subaru DMEs are less than 1 minute to read. And even shorter to write. And virtually impossible to brick. It also helps that each model year only has a few different ROM version. Not the countless updates/fixes that BMW has released for the n54. The whole process in the BMW requires around 30-40 minutes and requires (at least according to BMW) a 60 amp charger that normal people just don't have access too. No flashing process is without risk. The longer it takes, the longer the exposure to risk. Similarly, the risk in installing the Procede is dropped screws or broken tabs if not done with a reasonable amount of care. There is no risk of damaging the DME or rendering it inoperable.

    6) BMW implemented an on-board data acquisition (FASTA) system that no one fully understands outside of the engineers on the other side of the ISTA network that your car hooks up to at the dealership. Besides them, no one will tell you where all this historical operational data resides. What this means is that claims of true diagnostic invisibility cannot be made when it comes to flashes. The only way to achieve invisibility is to actually shield the actual engine values from being seen by the DME. And only piggybacks can do this. Piggybacks, instead, are more subject to mechanically implemented roadblocks. Like tamper sealing the DME box. Or using connectors that can't be sourced through Tyco, AMP, etc,. But even then, getting around things are rarely impossible. But rather inconvenient.

    7) Piggybacks can implement additional features that yield measurable improvements in performance and drivability. While reflashes, unless very well developed (which isn't the norm) are often limited to editing values within maps of fixed functionality. The Procede, on the other hand, has implemented:
    -Wastegate compensation to reduce lag/overshoot.
    -Autotuning to keep the car running safety and strong in various conditions and fuel qualities.
    -Progressive Methanol mapping for safe use with methanol
    -In-dash gauge functions (boost, afr, ign adv, IAT) and displays (map#, meth flow, etc,.)
    -Built-in diagnostic functionality for not only reading/clear codes but also individual adaptation resets.
    -Realtime map-switching
    -Launch mode
    -Timing based traction control

    Some of the features (methanol mapping, launch and traction control) above will have no benefits to many users. So what it all boils down to is how well the car drives with each tuning solution. I'd confidently our Procede against any tuning system available for the n54. I believe it will drive better and faster. Either running off the shelf maps or custom mapped. At the end of the day, this is where the rubber hits the road.

    Shiv
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #56
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    In a few other markets, flash tuning is very well developed. This is usually the case with Japanese car manufacturers who don't go as far as the Germans do when it comes to hiding how the DME works and were map locations are. It also helps that some markets enjoy open source ROM editing systems that cost a whopping $80 to purchase and a couple email conversions to get a good starting map.
    This is what pushed Vishnu out of the Subaru/Mitsu market. I am jealous of tuning those platforms when their ECU's are open books and they can do anything they want basically with the stock DME. That means all the things Shiv mentioned the Procede is capable of, as well as things it never will be. Assuming N54 flash development was up to the same level, the days for the Procede would be over the same as the time for the Xede came to an end.

    Imagine if we had that kind of access? Imagine what could be done with the DCT transmission for example among others.

    He is defending piggybacks over a flash tune on the BMW due to the complexity of the ECU and where flash tuning currently is at. The one main point is that flash tuning does evolve and I do not believe Shiv is currently up to date on where that evolution is. The fact is flash tuning does have more room to evolve than piggybacks do and a proper flash tune is ultimately preferred. The complexity of the tune and the ecu are the hurdles but someone experienced with flash tuning on BMW's is not going to brick an ecu. From what I have seen of the accessport as well as the OE Tuning EZ flash worrying about changing maps on BMW ecu's is a thing of the past. The implication is there is risk with using these to flash the ecu which is unsubstantiated.

  7. #57
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    I would be a whole different ballgame
    Click here to enlarge

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
    I would be a whole different ballgame
    Oh, it will be, just by then we won't care and everyone would have made their money on this platform.

    There should be some kind of law that after X amount of years a manufacturer has to release details on maps in the ECU to allow owners to make changes that coincide with their hardware. Not completely open source as I'm sure they will argue that they would lose a competitive advantage (imagine if Windows was open source?) although it hasn't seemed to hurt the Japanese.

  9. #59
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    He says fueling is not much of a limitation. Low ambition level?

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    He says fueling is not much of a limitation. Low ambition level?
    Fuel has been the major limitation for some now.

  11. #61
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    He's saying you can't get 200+whp over stock on other fuel systems... Get a 2005 sti which puts down 260awhp? Try to make 460+ awhp with the stock fuel pump injectors ect...
    JB4LIFE

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    He says fueling is not much of a limitation. Low ambition level?
    Compared to other vehicles, there is not much in the market for N54 compressors that have the ability to push enough air to max out the stock fuel system. We are just now starting to see bored-out stock frame turbos get to customer vehicles. The larger turbos are going to be where the fuel limit becomes the biggest bottleneck.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Compared to other vehicles, there is not much in the market for N54 compressors that have the ability to push enough air to max out the stock fuel system. We are just now starting to see bored-out stock frame turbos get to customer vehicles. The larger turbos are going to be where the fuel limit becomes the biggest bottleneck.
    Does not change the fact where N54 tuning currently is things can not progress until the fuel system is addressed. Even with stock turbos + nitrous you approach the limits.

    Yes, there is a lot of room to play but the N54 has reached fuel limitations.

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    He's saying you can't get 200+whp over stock on other fuel systems... Get a 2005 sti which puts down 260awhp? Try to make 460+ awhp with the stock fuel pump injectors ect...
    It has an option for larger injectors, many options. Try making 700+ whp with the N54...

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It has an option for larger injectors, many options. Try making 700+ whp with the N54...
    Patience Sticky, patience......

  16. #66
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    Interesting, but most of it flew overhead...

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Patience Sticky, patience......
    By then you will be letting me know on bimmercharge.com, or bimmeramp, I don't know, don't have a good name for BMW electric tuning.

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    yeah and lets not forget cyl 2 and 5 failures a la JB3 year 2010 .
    And if i was on my laptop and not the droid, i would show a screen shot of a particular person sayin how dumb another person is for going for max power on pump/meth and not adding racefuel, weven though that person blew his motor for doing the exact same thing... in 2010

  19. #69
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It has an option for larger injectors, many options. Try making 700+ whp with the N54...
    In 2011 we will
    JB4LIFE

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    In 2011 we will
    I like the optimism Click here to enlarge

  21. #71
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    i used to flash my Evo 8 onthe highway going 80MPH LOL!
    the car would shut down during the flash process and by the time it was done, i was still going 70!

    now that was great...

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