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  1. #26
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    The AP in its current form is useless to everyone except tune only folk. When Stage 2/3 + ATR come out, it will be a whole different ballgame IMO. Being that ATR is probably 6-12 months away, I think the piggies are perfectly safe right now Click here to enlarge

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    ATR is shooting for april. We'll see what the spring time brings us.

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    Looks like the COBB owner of that log, continues to throw codes aswell:

    http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=51

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5soko Click here to enlarge
    Looks like the COBB owner of that log, continues to throw codes aswell:

    http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=51
    What is the explanation given for the codes?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What is the explanation given for the codes?
    No explanation yet, COBB is looking into it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The AP in its current form is useless to everyone except tune only folk. When Stage 2/3 + ATR come out, it will be a whole different ballgame IMO. Being that ATR is probably 6-12 months away, I think the piggies are perfectly safe right now Click here to enlarge
    We'll see how it goes. Laloosh is FBO and he's flashing Stage 1 now... I predict many choice words.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AtlHarry335 Click here to enlarge
    We'll see how it goes. Laloosh is FBO and he's flashing Stage 1 now... I predict many choice words.
    I agree.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    You and I both don't know this information yet - until the AT is released - so why even assume they don't? That would be stupid. They are the biggest and most sophisticated tuner by nature to ever enter this market.

    Knowing Trey Cobb himself - who personally decompiles all the hex himself in House from every car they deal with i'd say he's got more then you think for tables. If history repeats itself he finds things other tuners havent from experience with him over the last 10 years. He isn't sitting there with WINOLS either. And from using their AccessTuner software for years I'd say they will have all the tables worked out more then any other person on the market. That is a full born tuning facility. Cobb's tuning of the tables is subjective...but once end user software is released - every other option on the market is in for immediate trouble. IMO an OTS file is good enough to drive the car to the dyno. You and I know the difference between all these cars and how they can vary. Closed loop boost or fuel aside.

    Here's my position Terry and I think you'll agree with me....Cobb IMO hasn't found all the torque limits or the tuner codes or worked them out yet based on posts and information I've seen. And as they increase the boost it will get even more messy. Along with the self flashing, can id faults issues and other flashing related errors will be stored in some of these cars when they go into service and boom, investigation. The AP didn't even read these codes while the BT did. This will cause a world of hurt for people thinking they are invisible since they flashed back to stock.

    This is something someone like myself who has been flashing BMW's DMEs and working with service managers for a while would know. I don't think it's possible to work out all the MSD DME issues as quickly as they did. They have some more homework and pain to deal with. The MSD80/1 also doesnt flash quick at all aka SLOWEST DME EVER! This may cause issues with bricking. I can't even count how many Subaru ECU's I've witnessed brick during an unmarrying process of an AP and they take less then 0 seconds. Almost to the point I won't unmarry one.

    The N54 is a finicky platform, a code clearing software is needed with each purchase, IMO. Regardless of the tuning solution. This is what they need to focus on with the AP.
    I would agree with most of that. I don't know Cobb and haven't worked with them before. But everyone has to start somewhere and depending on allocated resources they will be able to do better and better tuning through their flash model. But the boost control will continue to be the Achilles heel with it for some time to come IMHO.

  9. #34
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I'm still reading but I personally like it when Adrian chimes in as he has a clear and non-confrontational way of speaking.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adrain@Vishnu
    Hi All,

    I just want to say how I think it works. For obvious reasons I have alot of experience working with this car... but I have not personally tuned the factory maps as Cobb has. But I think people are misunderstanding how the load targetting works.

    The DME has a defined load for a particular RPM and throttle conditions. From this it determine from the air density (temp and baro pressure), the desired boost to reach this load. This boost becomes the target boost. After that the the boost control and throttle control side of the DME has NOTHING to do with the load targetting. It is just working towards boost target. It is clear as day when looking at the posted logs, that the target boost does not do anything strange when the throttle closures occur. The throttle closures only occur when the actual boost goes beyond the target boost. They are just the DMEs way of stopping the engine from what it sees as an overboost. It is one thing to say that this is great that the DME keeps the load consistent by using the throttle, but if it had good boost control, there would be no need for the throttle activity to come into it. Also, I have been tuning turbo cars for a long time.... and IMHO, unless the overboost is so much that it would be dangerous to the engine, I would much rather a small overboost with no throttle activity than with throttle activity.

    I also like the way that people say that 18psi with 70% throttle is the same as 15psi at 100% throttle. What really matter is the boost in the manifold which is not shown in any of these logs. The boost shown is pre throttle. The truth is that 18psi at 70% throttle is not really 18psi as far as the engine is concerned, because the increased restriction of closing the throttle has reduced the boost in the manifold, so it would be more accurate to say that 18psi with 70% throttle is actually not really 18psi as far as the engine is concerned as it only see what is it in the manifold which is probably actually 15psi. And why would the engine want to see only 15 psi while the turbos are putting out 18psi... which increases the load on the turbine and increases back pressure and reduces power for the same boost?

    I think Cobb will get boost control better, but it will take some work to get it as good as a what we are doing with Procede... maybe they will. But make no mistake... throttle trimming is not desired... it is only done because the boost control failed to hit the targets correctly. Sure it may make the power consistent, but IMHO I would prefer the extra hit in power with no throttle trimming and allowing the engine and turbos to work efficiently the whole time.

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@Cobb
    Hi Adrian,

    What you can't see in the logs is the requested load vs. actual load, pressure ratio across the turbo, and pressure post throttle plate (modeled value). All of the above are used when it comes time to dynamically change how the turbos are running. The ECU knows what the pressure is from the turbo all the way into the intake manifold for the vary reason of controlling itself when trimming the throttle. Having an intimate knowledge of how the MSD8x controls boost, I can say the throttle trimming is not just for gross overboosts. The ECU does so with the stock tune.

    When tuning motors there is the philosophy of keeping the momentum going to make good smooth power. Anything that kills momentum such as large timing hits, quick gross changes in fueling, blowing the wastegates open, etc all hurt momentum resulting in a lower power number even hundreds of RPM later. BMW uses the throttle to trim the mass airflow entering the motor and a WGDC change vs. a larger wastegate change. This may waste a small amount of energy during the short time the trimming is happening, but keeps the momentum going as the throttle re-opens creating a nice smooth transition back to 100% throttle where the stored energy is released back into the intake manifold.

    Every car I have tuned prior to the Minis and BMW fully used WGDC as a means to control boost and using the throttle as an emergency means to control overboost. Without having dug though the ECU logic myself, I would also be of the opinion the throttle closure is bad. Some of the logic seimens and bosch have put together seems a bit odd. After a good bit of tuning I have come to appreciate their logic.

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adrian@Vishnu
    Hi Rob,

    Thanks for discussing this with me. Is there any chance that we could look at logs of the parameters you have mentioned?

    For a long time before we had CAN integration with the Procede, we had to guess what was actually happening with regards to the throttle and how to manage it. When we were able to see it with CAN data, we drastically altered how we manage the throttle with the tune. We are certainly aware that the standard throttle activity is not limitted to gross overboost protection, and will react to small fractions of a psi with throttle closure. We have done things with the Procede to manage differently what we consider to be gross overboost and minor overboost. We are of the opinion that small overboosts (<1psi) should not be managed with throttle activity. Our testing has revealed that these throttle activities do have a measurable effect on drag times, and in reality the small overboost (0.5psi out of 15psi) has negligable effect on actual engine load in terms of cylinder pressures and knock.

    Having worked on turbo cars for a long time, I have measured the effects of unwanted restrictions in the intake tract between turbo and intake ports. Poor quality bad flowing intercoolers that increase the boost out of the turbo required to get a required manifold boost have a much greater hit on power, then good flowing intercoolers that output 10C hotter air. The turbo is forced to operate at a higher pressure ratio which brings the efficiency down, and hits the engine with more back pressure (particularly with undersized turbos). Closing the throttle is doing the same thing, although for only a fraction of the time.

    Anyway, I understand that this is a desired thing in the DME logic... but I am sure if the boost was controlled in such a way that the boost actual was always on the target boost, the throttle activity would not take place, and the result would be better. I am of the opinion that the DME logic for wastegate control is not as effective as what we have implemented in the Procede. We have seen much better tracking of target boost with the Procede direct control than we have ever seen from any DME wastegate control logic. I am unaware if Cobb are able to alter the logic or just the tables used by the logic at this time. The vacuum controlled wastegates offer extremely fast response of the wastegates to get a much more accurate control than I have seen of more traditional boost operated wastegates. They work very well when they are controlled optimally.

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    Thanks for the update, great read
    JB4LIFE

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    I feel like a lot of people are projecting their dream tune on COBB without understanding how the DME works.

    It will be clarifying to see stage 2/3 tunes. Then we will be able to see if COBB can deliver the goods Click here to enlarge

    I still can't get why people are running COBB stg1 on a full bolt on/meth car? Seems silly (and a waste of meth).
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

  12. #37
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    I don't understand why people do either. But hey, it's their car.

  13. #38
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    Wow, for once I mostly agree with Adrian! Click here to enlarge Although with the JB4 we have not dampened the overshoot throttle activity as they have, the general rule of thumb of striving for a 100% sustained open throttle with minimal overshoot is right on for maximizing efficiency. We've learned a lot about the platform over the years... Back in 2008 we assumed throttle activity was integrated but didn't fully understand the relationship between it and the targeting system. The BT really changed everything by allowing us to break apart every parameter and map out how they interact.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 01-19-2011 at 03:36 PM.

  14. #39
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    To continue on this COBB tune.
    Alan I who is basically Stock, with a intake and catback exhaust, who is running the COBB tune for this basic setup is continuing to get throttle closures and this'sloppy' boost control with his NEW logs. Also seems like he cant get rid of certain codes and he keeps throwing them after erasing them with the BT tool. Not cant he get rid of them, but the COBB AP doesnt even read them, only the BT!!

    HIS POST:

    Small update: Loaded in the new v101 map and did some logging.

    Code 2D5A Control Motor torque limitation came back after doing some logging

    Car still pulls very hard and smooth. Def. do not feel any throttle closures.

    All of the codes that i got after the initial install, that were cleared by the BT Scanner all came back AFTER i changed the map. It would appear that the AP does not even read those codes at all or able to clear them. I drove around for a good hour before i scanned the car with the BT Tool. This is something Cobb needs to look into because not everyone has a BT Tool to clear these


    Alan


    Still not very impressed with much of anything from COBB so far that wins me over a piggy. Will have to wait and see. Since so many people run basically stock cars, this is the tune many will run and so far, its nothing impressive IMHO.

  15. #40
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    Alan mentioned that all the codes disappeared after the initial drive and after he had put some miles on it. Except for the one code 2FA3 is present because of the mismatched flash file.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    Alan mentioned that all the codes disappeared after the initial drive and after he had put some miles on it. Except for the one code 2FA3 is present because of the mismatched flash file.
    Was he the only one having an issue with codes?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5soko Click here to enlarge
    To continue on this COBB tune.
    Alan I who is basically Stock, with a intake and catback exhaust, who is running the COBB tune for this basic setup is continuing to get throttle closures and this'sloppy' boost control with his NEW logs. Also seems like he cant get rid of certain codes and he keeps throwing them after erasing them with the BT tool. Not cant he get rid of them, but the COBB AP doesnt even read them, only the BT!!

    HIS POST:

    Small update: Loaded in the new v101 map and did some logging.

    Code 2D5A Control Motor torque limitation came back after doing some logging

    Car still pulls very hard and smooth. Def. do not feel any throttle closures.

    All of the codes that i got after the initial install, that were cleared by the BT Scanner all came back AFTER i changed the map. It would appear that the AP does not even read those codes at all or able to clear them. I drove around for a good hour before i scanned the car with the BT Tool. This is something Cobb needs to look into because not everyone has a BT Tool to clear these


    Alan


    Still not very impressed with much of anything from COBB so far that wins me over a piggy. Will have to wait and see. Since so many people run basically stock cars, this is the tune many will run and so far, its nothing impressive IMHO.
    lol but you're missing the main message from Alan, " it feels better than piggys" pulls stronger and smoother.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by n54BoostOnCoke Click here to enlarge
    lol but you're missing the main message from Alan, " it feels better than piggys" pulls stronger and smoother.
    Who is Alan and what does he have to do with Cobb?

    Does it really feel much better than piggy's?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by n54BoostOnCoke Click here to enlarge
    lol but you're missing the main message from Alan, " it feels better than piggys" pulls stronger and smoother.
    In what i posted he was stating how it pulls 'hard and smooth', forcing out the issue of feeling throttle closure not comparing it directly to piggys. If i remember correctly, he did mention on the PROcede he was boosting 13 psi and wit the cobb he is boosting close to 15 or just a bit over 15psi. So i would assume it would feel stronger.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    Alan mentioned that all the codes disappeared after the initial drive and after he had put some miles on it. Except for the one code 2FA3 is present because of the mismatched flash file.
    I think that is what he said when he first installed it. What i posted was from yesterday when he updated the AP?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5soko Click here to enlarge
    In what i posted he was stating how it pulls 'hard and smooth', forcing out the issue of feeling throttle closure not comparing it directly to piggys. If i remember correctly, he did mention on the PROcede he was boosting 13 psi and wit the cobb he is boosting close to 15 or just a bit over 15psi. So i would assume it would feel stronger.



    I think that is what he said when he first installed it. What i posted was from yesterday when he updated the AP?
    lol Na I meant you're missing that point for yourself lol

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Who is Alan and what does he have to do with Cobb?

    Does it really feel much better than piggy's?
    I don't think he's got any ties to Cobb... He's had the JB3, Procede and now the AP.

    Another post from Alan -

    As of now i can't say which is better. They feel very different in terms of how they deliver power. When i had the JB3 the power was like a on/off switch. All or nothing power delivery. With the Procede that was significantly improved where power was much linear and part throttle driving was tons better. Power delivery from the AP is even better from what i can tell so far. Its super smooth and you never feel the car jerk forward if you give the car too much throttle like you do with the piggies. The best way to describe it is that with piggies i find the throttle very sensitive and could be jerky a times where as now with the AP it feels more like stock but with a lot more power. In fairness its too early to really judge which is better but i plan on keeping my Procede for awhile longer while i put the AP to the test

    Alan

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5soko Click here to enlarge
    In what i posted he was stating how it pulls 'hard and smooth', forcing out the issue of feeling throttle closure not comparing it directly to piggys. If i remember correctly, he did mention on the PROcede he was boosting 13 psi and wit the cobb he is boosting close to 15 or just a bit over 15psi. So i would assume it would feel stronger.
    It's only 15 psi with the throttle partially closed (when it's overboosting). When the boost is on target it's right around 13 psi
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

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    Good info.. Didnt look into myself, was just going by what Alan was saying himself.

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    Everyone is on a first name basis with this Alan guy it seems.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Everyone is on a first name basis with this Alan guy it seems.
    His user name is 'Alan l.'
    Click here to enlarge

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