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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    1)The stock ECU convo is moot since HPF would use an AEM EMS/harness for tuning just like they did with the s54.
    You know this is possible on the N54?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    2) My bet is HPF will not use the DI at all and simply control the standard injector rail located at the base of the runners for the custom intake manifold, therefore DI control convo is moot.
    HPF has not commented on this but once again this brings us back to the tuning issue.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    3) They successfully tuned the s54 on mss54 using an AEM EMS/harness. How many tuners have tuned the s54 with turbo other than them compared to the amount of tuners who have tuned the n54? Think about it.
    The N54 is turbo by default, not a valid comparison. Secondly, several tuners have tuned successful forced induction applications on the factory ECU. The AEM setup was the best solution for HPF because the factory DME is that difficult to do with a turbo.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    4) How many single turbo n54s are actually out boosting right now?
    2?

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    Come on sticky those 2 don't count. Lol. No real info outta then and a couple fly bys don't count. Other companies are ahead with hardware which is easiest part.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Come on sticky those 2 don't count. Lol. No real info outta then and a couple fly bys don't count. Other companies are ahead with hardware which is easiest part.
    I agree with you. Those two do count though, well, at least we should be getting some solid info on them soon I would think.

    Flybys do not count, agreed.

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    I got nothing against those other companies. I just think anyone can show progress on hardware and completely die when tuning comes. I hope to see a single turbo kit soon. I don't know the customer service of those other guys. If I was in n54 market I think I might wait to see a hpf product knowing they will always have your back is a BIG plus.

    Someone might pop up with a kit first but we they be around in the future. I'm pretty much talking about anyone making a kit not just unfor and Ar.

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    with the amount of r&d time invested, thats a good portion of it. they were quick to post because they HAD a tuning solution. then a few things changed had a setback. the 2ndary fuel system alone, if released s major update. This will also trickle down to "moderatley" modified guys as well.. so they should be counted, but HPF isnt in for the quick releases. when they release something its usually ready to go with parts and service to match

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You know this is possible on the N54?
    There are many standalones that could tune the N54 (without DI). It's a matter of ignition, fuel injection and vanos. HPF had top AEM engineers produce a custom EMS and harness for them to do what they wanted to do with the e46 m3. It is most likely they will do the same with the N54. Why not? They have many advantages using their AEM EMS due to multiple maps via the flip of switches/boost control not adjustable by user/traction control/knock sirens/etc.


    HPF has not commented on this but once again this brings us back to the tuning issue.
    See above.


    The N54 is turbo by default, not a valid comparison. Secondly, several tuners have tuned successful forced induction applications on the factory ECU. The AEM setup was the best solution for HPF because the factory DME is that difficult to do with a turbo.
    Whether a motor comes with turbo by default or not does not matter when you are arguing the difficulty of tuning the stock DME. s54 or n54 does not matter (just assume there is no DI). You still have to either reverse engineer the DME to be able to change the tune to suit your needs with upgrades, or you have to be able to figure out a piggyback to work with it or slap on a standalone and complete do your own thing. Being the n54 came turbo from the factory made it a no-brainer for many tuning companies who otherwise would not touch a BMW to tune for turbo (hence the e46 m3). I doubt the DME is any easier to crack or run a piggyback with, it's just that there was way more demand than there ever was with the e46 m3 and it's much easier to slap on a piggyback, exhaust and tune when all the rest of the hardware you need is already there from the factory. Regardless, BMW DMEs are extremely hard to crack (there is a company which isn't quite yet complete with cracking the OBD2 DME for the US e36 which is much older than the ones for the e46 m3 and the 335i). The point is that nobody cracked the mss54 for a turbo application but HPF figured out a way with AEM's help to produce a custom AEM EMS/harness setup to do everything they wanted to do in order to produce fabulous tuning with many variations for their e46 m3 turbo systems. What is to stop them from doing the same with the n54? This is not a conversation about using the stock DME entirely or not...this is a conversation about using whatever means necessary to get the proper results in order to slap on a custom exhaust manifold and single turbo and make massive/reliable power out of it. Has anyone else successfully tuned an n54 with their own exhaust manifold and a big single turbo? NOPE! So HPF isn't behind at all ya see. It seems that way because other companies came out guns blazing when truthfully they simply jumped the gun.

    The edge that HPF has here is that they have the experience to do what is needed on the n54 to jump from piggyback with stock turbos and bolt-ons still using DI to bailing the entire turbo system altogether, bailing the DI altogether and going big with their own kit. While these other companies are messing around with the DI, HPF could leap forward and beyond by eliminating it which turns the motor into an easily tuned machine depending on how their AEM EMS/harness is set up and what it controls and doesn't control.



    2?
    NOPE. ZERO. Where are the dyno sheets? Where is the proof? Single turbo? I think not!
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    with the amount of r&d time invested, thats a good portion of it. they were quick to post because they HAD a tuning solution. then a few things changed had a setback. the 2ndary fuel system alone, if released s major update. This will also trickle down to "moderatley" modified guys as well.. so they should be counted, but HPF isnt in for the quick releases. when they release something its usually ready to go with parts and service to match
    +1
    Last edited by highboostingm3; 01-12-2011 at 03:03 AM.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    There are many standalones that could tune the N54 (without DI). It's a matter of ignition, fuel injection and vanos. HPF had top AEM engineers produce a custom EMS and harness for them to do what they wanted to do with the e46 m3. It is most likely they will do the same with the N54. Why not? They have many advantages using their AEM EMS due to multiple maps via the flip of switches/boost control not adjustable by user/traction control/knock sirens/etc.
    According to Apex Speed Tech, there is a very slim amount of standalones that can do the N54 due to direct injection and they start at $15k: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...0714#post60714

    It certainly isn't as easy as you are making it sound and nothing like the S54. That is why you can't just carry over what HPF did with the E46 M3 to the 335 and expect the same thing. I'm just going by what Neel stated and he would be a good source for info on standalones.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    Whether a motor comes with turbo by default or not does not matter when you are arguing the difficulty of tuning the stock DME. s54 or n54 does not matter (just assume there is no DI). You still have to either reverse engineer the DME to be able to change the tune to suit your needs with upgrades, or you have to be able to figure out a piggyback to work with it or slap on a standalone and complete do your own thing. Being the n54 came turbo from the factory made it a no-brainer for many tuning companies who otherwise would not touch a BMW to tune for turbo (hence the e46 m3). I doubt the DME is any easier to crack or run a piggyback with, it's just that there was way more demand than there ever was with the e46 m3 and it's much easier to slap on a piggyback, exhaust and tune when all the rest of the hardware you need is already there from the factory. Regardless, BMW DMEs are extremely hard to crack (there is a company which isn't quite yet complete with cracking the OBD2 DME for the US e36 which is much older than the ones for the e46 m3 and the 335i). The point is that nobody cracked the mss54 for a turbo application but HPF figured out a way with AEM's help to produce a custom AEM EMS/harness setup to do everything they wanted to do in order to produce fabulous tuning with many variations for their e46 m3 turbo systems. What is to stop them from doing the same with the n54? This is not a conversation about using the stock DME entirely or not...this is a conversation about using whatever means necessary to get the proper results in order to slap on a custom exhaust manifold and single turbo and make massive/reliable power out of it. Has anyone else successfully tuned an n54 with their own exhaust manifold and a big single turbo? NOPE! So HPF isn't behind at all ya see. It seems that way because other companies came out guns blazing when truthfully they simply jumped the gun.
    I must respectfully disagree.

    Whether motor is turbo or not from the factory is a large factor, huge. The complexity of taking a DME like that in the M3 and adding turbos and trying to get it to run with them vs. tuning a DME already running turbos like that in the N54 is very, very different.

    I realize this is not a topic about using the factory DME but in order to eliminate direct injection completely as your propose would require some mastery of the N54 ecu which has not been demonstrated. Using port injection in conjunction seems to be the best solution presented thus far.

    They did jump the gun, and I criticized them for that, namely ardesign. However, they have run their own exhaust manifold and tuned it as well as provided dyno results.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    NOPE. ZERO. Where are the dyno sheets? Where is the proof? Single turbo? I think not!
    We have dyno's from AR Design but are waiting on Unfor.

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    Shady dynos correct?? I read so much stuff I could be getting confused but didn't ar get blasted by a forum member here for suspect dyno graphs?

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Shady dynos correct?? I read so much stuff I could be getting confused but didn't ar get blasted by a forum member here for suspect dyno graphs?
    It had something to do with elevation since they are in Colorado. Plus, suspect member to begin with.

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  10. #35
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    Ok. Wasn't sure. I read so much $#@!. At one point it all mashes togather. Lol

  11. #36
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Neel was spot on with his ECU comments. The N54 DME is even more complex than the S54 (over 25 million processes/second if i remember correctly)

    also there where a few people who have cracked the E36 dme, and the E39 one....dirt11s 540 was tuned by Mr. X who flew in from Germany and changed the actual base tables in the DME...no flash or chips or anything like that.

    I remember seeing someone who had an E36 on here with the same setup...base parameters changed on the factory DME.

    If it was as easy to run an AEM as you say it is, i would have been done an N54 swap a long time ago. Neel stated there are only a handful of ECUs that can handle the N54, and any EMS that is out readily available to the public (AEM, Haltech, Electromotive) doesnt even have 1/4 the processing power and tables needed. Which is one of the reasons piggybacks became so sucessful.

    Sure if you want to go buy a Pectel or a Bosch Motorsport ECU it can be done...but at the tune of 13k (not including harness or sensors) thats a bit out of reach for most of us.

    Without DI, this engine will suffer the same consequences as an S54. Stock engine you can make what, 10-12psi? Your heads are much better and well flowed vs an N54 head.

    Anything beyond that you have to do pistons and/or rods correct? Why would i want to rebuild my N54 just to take 13+ psi cuse i converted it to port injection which is not really efficient as a full time fuel supply (using it to supplement DI injectors is something else Click here to enlarge ) and it would detonate/knock like crazy. This engine is designed around its fuel system, its so well integrated its a moot point to even try to do without.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    dirt11s 540 was tuned by Mr. X who flew in from Germany and changed the actual base tables in the DME...no flash or chips or anything like that.
    I can't stress enough how awesome that is or how talented this Mr. X must be.

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    Don't know why everyone hates on DI, it's there for performance...... your cylinder temps would be much higher if it was port injection only......

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Don't know why everyone hates on DI, it's there for performance...... your cylinder temps would be much higher if it was port injection only......
    It isn't there for performance...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It isn't there for performance...
    Prove how it does not improve the performance of the internal combustion engine.

    If Ferrari had a V12 with DI in their 599, would you say otherwise?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    According to Apex Speed Tech, there is a very slim amount of standalones that can do the N54 due to direct injection and they start at $15k: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...0714#post60714

    It certainly isn't as easy as you are making it sound and nothing like the S54. That is why you can't just carry over what HPF did with the E46 M3 to the 335 and expect the same thing. I'm just going by what Neel stated and he would be a good source for info on standalones.



    I must respectfully disagree.

    Whether motor is turbo or not from the factory is a large factor, huge. The complexity of taking a DME like that in the M3 and adding turbos and trying to get it to run with them vs. tuning a DME already running turbos like that in the N54 is very, very different.

    I realize this is not a topic about using the factory DME but in order to eliminate direct injection completely as your propose would require some mastery of the N54 ecu which has not been demonstrated. Using port injection in conjunction seems to be the best solution presented thus far.

    They did jump the gun, and I criticized them for that, namely ardesign. However, they have run their own exhaust manifold and tuned it as well as provided dyno results.



    We have dyno's from AR Design but are waiting on Unfor.
    I understand and most of what you are saying is in regards to tuning the stock DME entirely or by piggyback or via standalone where DI is still used. I do feel the DI is advantageous and I will explain why I have been talking about eliminating further below.

    Yes I need to change my previous post, I meant AR Design and I think I posted ASR. We agree there that they jumped the gun and are a tad unprofessional.

    Dynos proving they are from a custom exhaust manifold and single turbo? We don’t know what is on the car, we would need a video going under the car showing the big single and custom manifold runners then run it showing boost gauge and go to computer screen showing power for real proof.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    Neel was spot on with his ECU comments. The N54 DME is even more complex than the S54 (over 25 million processes/second if i remember correctly)

    also there where a few people who have cracked the E36 dme, and the E39 one....dirt11s 540 was tuned by Mr. X who flew in from Germany and changed the actual base tables in the DME...no flash or chips or anything like that.

    I remember seeing someone who had an E36 on here with the same setup...base parameters changed on the factory DME.

    If it was as easy to run an AEM as you say it is, i would have been done an N54 swap a long time ago. Neel stated there are only a handful of ECUs that can handle the N54, and any EMS that is out readily available to the public (AEM, Haltech, Electromotive) doesn't even have 1/4 the processing power and tables needed. Which is one of the reasons piggybacks became so successful.

    Sure if you want to go buy a Pectel or a Bosch Motorsport ECU it can be done...but at the tune of 13k (not including harness or sensors) thats a bit out of reach for most of us.

    Without DI, this engine will suffer the same consequences as an S54. Stock engine you can make what, 10-12psi? Your heads are much better and well flowed vs an N54 head.

    Anything beyond that you have to do pistons and/or rods correct? Why would i want to rebuild my N54 just to take 13+ psi cuse i converted it to port injection which is not really efficient as a full time fuel supply (using it to supplement DI injectors is something else Click here to enlarge ) and it would detonate/knock like crazy. This engine is designed around its fuel system, its so well integrated its a moot point to even try to do without.
    You are correct. I was talking about TRM but Nick G. (da man) has been tuning OBDII e36s for a long time and of course has the 330 turbo system all done on stock DME, etc. However, he is basically the only one (forget talking about Conforti who knows everything and knows it) .

    Without DI you would deal with having to reduce compression by thicker spacer or pistons of course and that is a pain. However, why would we be talking single unless we are talking BIG POWA! I mean with the current DI injectors and stock housing but with larger wheels you can make about 500whp or more with meth? That’s cool and all but it’s maxed out. The next step for single will max the injectors anyway.

    Now...if some company actually produces larger DI injectors which would actually spray in the proper manner, etc. (look into DI injectors, they are so extremely complicated I doubt...yet I hope a company will actually make larger ones for the N54 some day) then would we find the next limit? Rods? Pistons? Possibly we would get lucky and BMW would have actually decided to be as cool as Toyota and over-engineer the rods and pistons like in the 2gz-gte so that they can go to 1000whp. Possibly not. If not then the engine needs aftermarket internals anyway probably above the 500ish max people have made using the stock DME/piggyback and stock DI injectors.

    Now I do like DI and it is a massive technological break-through so no I am not ignorant of that. However, going back up a bit where I posted the fact there are no after market larger DI injector alternatives for this motor, then there we are.

    If you immediately say, “Hey wait a minute though! What about the stock DI and then adding port injection?” Well, don’t ya think that all of the arguments regarding why DI is so freaking awesome just went into the toilet once you add on port injection? You will now have a much less knock resistance and all those things that port injection does a worse job at than DI so now the higher compression ratio is a problem, etc. and you might as well be all port with a built motor.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Don't know why everyone hates on DI, it's there for performance...... your cylinder temps would be much higher if it was port injection only......
    I explained above. I think DI is awesome technology...it’s just the aftermarket is going to have hard time catching up since it’s so complicated.



    So for those going for BIG POWER above 500 or so whp...the natural progression is a built motor with lower compression unless a company comes out with aftermarket DI injectors for the n54 capable of 600-800whp and the internals will actually support that power.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
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    No one knows just yet what adding 6 injectors will do. We will find out shortly I hope...maybe Unfor can provide some insight...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    No one knows just yet what adding 6 injectors will do. We will find out shortly I hope...maybe Unfor can provide some insight...
    Most know the difference between DI and PI, no? Then if you add more fuel with PI you are now adding at least a percentage of the disadvantages of PI as compared to DI, no?

    I hope we find out shortly. I have nothing against CPE because they don't have a big ugly mouth like some others. They are cool. I wish the best for unfor and reall want this to happen. Just a bummer it hasn't and I really scratched my head at the repeated answer from unfor "the tuning has already been figured out". HOW? It's never been done before on the N54 so how the hell has the tuning already been figured out? Was DI plus PI already tuned with the stock turbos? NO! If one thing doesn't make logical sense then you wonder other things, correct?

    Is what I am saying that far off? Has anyone properly tested the rods and pistons yet? The N54 hasn't been pushed to the limits as the s52 has or the m52 has. It hasn't even been pushed to those same numbers yet. For all we know, the rods and/or pistons could fail with the next psi added. 550wtq? We will see. Hopefully it was built like the 2jz-gte but in my experience with turbo BMWs (and I owned an MKIV big single turbo Supra for 3 years BTW) and Supras, BMW hasn't made a stock motor that someone has added a turbo to that is as impressive as the 2jz-gte as far as I have seen (I know the compression is higher but even with c16 or q16 fuel to take care of detonation issues and the highest I have seen is 704whp and less wtq with m52). Let alone drivetrain parts.
    Last edited by highboostingm3; 01-13-2011 at 02:33 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    Most know the difference between DI and PI, no? Then if you add more fuel with PI you are now adding at least a percentage of the disadvantages of PI as compared to DI, no?
    No, you would be combining the advantages of both. The only disadvantage is more complex setup and you will be using more gas. It will help clean the carbon build-up out too.

    Lol DI + PI = Fuel Everywhere

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    If you immediately say, “Hey wait a minute though! What about the stock DI and then adding port injection?” Well, don’t ya think that all of the arguments regarding why DI is so freaking awesome just went into the toilet once you add on port injection? You will now have a much less knock resistance and all those things that port injection does a worse job at than DI so now the higher compression ratio is a problem, etc. and you might as well be all port with a built motor.

    Why would the DI advantages disappear? You are still getting latent heat removal from the combustion chamber with DI, as well as the extra fuel and latent heat removal down the intake runners/ports with the PI. Your A/F will be whatever you want and there will be fuel everywhere.

    Tuning and setup will be the tough part.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Prove how it does not improve the performance of the internal combustion engine.

    If Ferrari had a V12 with DI in their 599, would you say otherwise?
    Yes, if Ferrari had it in their 599 it may make me think more about it.

    If it is for performance why does the 3.6 liter GT3 motor outperform the 3.8 direct injected carrera S motor? Which one is higher performance?

    DI allows is higher compression on pump gas, it is the compression boost that is seeing the power increase. The RS4's motor isn't as efficient as the S65 even with higher compression and 4.2 liters of displacement, what does that tell you?

    Direct injection is for fuel efficiency, it isn't added for performance or the top performance models (like the M engines) would have it. It actually makes things more difficult in the performance realm.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    Then if you add more fuel with PI you are now adding at least a percentage of the disadvantages of PI as compared to DI, no?
    What disadvantages? You aren't adding any % of disadvantage, you are simply adding more fuel.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by highboostingm3 Click here to enlarge
    Dynos proving they are from a custom exhaust manifold and single turbo? We don’t know what is on the car, we would need a video going under the car showing the big single and custom manifold runners then run it showing boost gauge and go to computer screen showing power for real proof.
    I really do not believe AR Design would fake a dyno like that. If they did, it would ruin their reputation and I would likely be the first one to point it out. We know they had a single turbo setup running I think it is safe to assume that is the setup that was dyno'd. Nothing leads me to believe otherwise.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Why would the DI advantages disappear? You are still getting latent heat removal from the combustion chamber with DI, as well as the extra fuel and latent heat removal down the intake runners/ports with the PI. Your A/F will be whatever you want and there will be fuel everywhere.

    Tuning and setup will be the tough part.
    The heat removal is what helps allowing it to run ultra lean in part throttle conditions without detonating. How does this help when the car is at full throttle?

    It is all about fuel efficiency, why do you think formula 1 decided not to pursue it?

    With equal compression ratios it is a wash.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The heat removal is what helps allowing it to run ultra lean in part throttle conditions without detonating. How does this help when the car is at full throttle?

    It is all about fuel efficiency, why do you think formula 1 decided not to pursue it?

    With equal compression ratios it is a wash.
    LOL so physics change when you got WOT?


    You reference the GT3 motor and S65. Guess what, they don't make more power because they stuck with Port Injection, they make more power because spin a hell of a lot faster!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    DI allows is higher compression on pump gas, it is the compression boost that is seeing the power increase.
    Click here to enlarge Exactly, more performance given the same fuel limitations.

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