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Thread: Z4M DP Nitrous

  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for emailing them Sticky!
    They e-mailed me. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Nano contacted me and wrote this response. Note, I am not picking sides or anything like that just giving Nano their say:



    Shannon Jenkins to date has never run a NANO system. They have experimented
    with there own types of push systems with dead head regulators. There system
    will actually build pressure as they go down track. Our system is not a push
    it is a pressure compensation system. We use a variable rate regulator. Our
    system holds pressure at 950psi down track or until you let off of the
    button. This is where most of our technology sits. Our regulation is
    actually very consistent. Between 30-80 degrees it will hold your static
    pressure at 1050psi. When it is 90+ degrees outside we use cooling bags,
    ice, shade, damp rag to keep the bottle below 85.

    Also, our fastest pass in a pro-mod to date is a 6.18 .



    The NANO system does not run lean on the top end. The NANO system holds the
    pressure at 950psi through the run. When you tune your system using the NANO
    you must add 20-25% more fuel with the same nitrous jet. You also pull out
    the equivalent timing to compensate the added power.



    Our system does not have a one way regulator. It is a variable rate
    regulator it reads pressure in the NANO bottle vs the pressure in the
    nitrous bottle.

    There is a lot of misleading in there. We have over 1000 systems out in the
    field today. I have been here 4 years since NANO has opened and I can assure
    that I would not have a career right now if it did not perform as we say. If
    you have any further questions I would be glad to answer them for you.

    Brad@NANO Nitrous LLC
    24/7 Tuning, Tech, Sales
    785-331-2390 Work
    785-760-2828 Cell
    www.nanonitrous.com
    Sales@nanonitrous.com
    Sticky,

    I see nothing wrong with getting the facts from the source. But in this case, the source has re-enforced my point regarding pressurizing the bottles, then having to cool them down when they get warmer. There is no bleed-off system for the pressure, so the regulator is in fact regulating pressure only in one direction.

    Personally, I would be keeping bottle pressure away from 1050psi.

    The statement about adding fuel is really confusing. Assuming the jetting at say 950 PSI at the starting line is correct, (AFR/EGTs good) why would you have to increase the jetting down track? (Physically impossible) The only reason I can think of is if you will run lean on the top end due to over-pressurization, so you need to start with a 20-25% richer mixture at the start. Maybe I'm reading that the wrong way? Is the 20-25% more fuel needed because adding the Nano system pushes more nitrous through the system at 950psi than say a normal bottle at 950psi? How is that possible if the density of liquid nitrous is constant below 1069 PSI? (At least until you can cool it to -92 degrees C)

    Now that we know there are so many systems (1000) sold that could give us data to disprove my point, lets see some data. Lets see some nitrous pressure traces for real race cars going down the 1/4 mile, or say at Bonneville where it would be a huge advantage.

    Why is it that the real heavyweights in the nitrous world haven't, and won't endorse using Nano? I'd love to see support in writing from Mike Thermos, (Founder of NOS) Steve Johnson, Monte Smith, Jeff Prock, Brandon Switzer, ect. They have nothing to loose from a business standpoint, because they don't offer a competing product. But....they won't openly support using Nano? Why is that?

    I'm a data guy, so it would be most logical to convince me I'm wrong with data. Credentials, while impressive during a job interview, don't prove anything from a scientific perspective. Science is where I'd prefer to keep the focus of this discussion.

  3. #28
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    And in Nano's Defence, I've copied the below from another forum posted back in 2008:

    "One of the big obstacles for NANO is the history of Push Systems. But we have never been able to find a definition that everyone agreed on. One of the early pioneers of push systems is “William Wheatley Patent 4683843” is the definition I use. ( I’m not sure about the spelling) He filed a patent for a push system. We found out about this when we did our patent search. Our system has some of the look and feel of the Wheatley patent, but is based on a different science and resolves issue the Push System did not. We have about 1000 systems out there without issues. That’s not to say the technology is fool proof. It still requires some attention.

    Our next major task is educating you and the sanctioning bodies. NANO's Technoloy are allowed by a lot of sanctioning bodies, but we fear being associated with Push Systems because they introduced dangers that our system does not. Technically we are an Energy Compensation System. As such we know of no reason this system should be any less legal than bottle heaters of bottle torches. Its up to us to tell the story so everyon understands the difference between our technology and the old school push systems. That’s not an easy task, especially when the patent attorneys start limiting what they want s to disclose. But times are changing. The patent process for our Energy Compensation System” is far enough along now that we are ready to talk.

    The NANO technology is based on simultaineously maintaining stable nitrous bottle pressures, stable nitrous temperatures, and consistent nitrous density.

    When a NANO system is first turned on our high pressure air regular releases regulated air from the NANO cylinder into the dome of your nitrous bottle. As the pressure in the nitrous bottle approaches 1040PSI all the nitrous vapor in the dome of your bottle is transformed into liquid and pools with the liquid in the lower portion of your nitrous bottle. Nitrous vapor no longer exists in the nitrous bottle. A pillow (bubble) of air has replaced the nitrous oxide vapor and restricts any nitrous oxide from gassing back into vapor, The system has initialized itself. It takes about two seconds to initialize.

    The initialized state is very important to our system. It defines the total energy within the nitrous bottle and its relationship to the amount of energy available in our NANO Cylinder (which when full has a pressure of about 4500psi).

    Using this baseline, our regulator is able to manage the “total-energy-transfer” to the nitrous bottle and the “rate-of-air transfer” required to maintain a constant “mass flow” of nitrous. Our whole system has been designed around providing a consistent "mas flow" of nitrous. Interestingly enough the pressure part of our equation is not totally linear, but the mass flow of nitrous oxide, which we measure every 1/6th of a second on our flow bench remains constant. Your data logging equipment will show a dynamic nitrous pressure of 940 to 950 psi as soon as you hit the button. But there are a lot of other factors affecting the mass flow. In some cases, according to our data, mostly when flowing above 0.70 lbs of nitrous per second the optimum pressure for producing the flow is somewhat lower.

    Although passed over lightly, the rate-of-air-transfer is very important, The proper raste of air transfer assures that the bubble of air in the dome of the nitrous bottle grows at the proper rate as nitrous oxide flows to the engine. If it were to grow to slow ntrous vapor would start to develop. If it were to grow to fast it would heat the nitrous oxide.

    You noticed that I have introduced the term “energy”. I did this because we were only able find our solution to consistent delivery nitrous, when we realized that we had to take into account all the energy in the system instead of simply focusing on temperature and pressure. Of course temperature and pressure are important measures used to quantify energy, but they do not cover all the variables we need to assure consistent nitrous "mass flow" goals. This sounds complicated, but using the NANO Technolog is actually quite simple.

    What do you think so far. I think this is a big enough bite to get some conversation going. I’m sure we will get into more detail later about why it works,.




    In wrapping up, there are a few simple parameters that need to be considered when using a NANO System.
    The nitrous bottle pressure must remain between 1050 and 860psi to perform properly. Most systems are tuned to 940 psi.
    The nitrous bottle temperature needs to remain constant at or below 80*F. That’s why we supply a nitrous bottle temperature gage with every system. You can chill your bottle, use ice packs, and you can reduce your temperature by purging your nitrous with the NANO System turned off.
    Always start with a full bottle of nitrous oxide.
    Always install a newly filled NANO Cylinder every time you put in a new nitrous bottle.
    Never heat your nitrous. No bottle heaters and no blow torches.
    For the same jet size, NANO tends to flow about 20% more nitrous. So some tuning is necessary when installing one of these systems. The higher the flow of nitrous being used (larger jets) the more critical it is that you retune your system.
    System Limits:
    Currently the highest flow system we sell flows 0.70 lbs/sec of nitrous. The restriction at that level is in the nitrous oxide bottle valve. We have tested valves that will produce higher flow rates (about 1.1 lbs/sec), but they are not commercially available yet. Those wanting higher flow rates must run multiple NANO’s.
    Our smallest system supports a 10lb nitrous bottle. We also have systems for 15 lb and 20 lb bottles.
    Last but not least. We do not have manuals for our systems yet. The first one for our Competition Kit will be available in about two weeks. I do have some pilling charts that I can share. They are in PDF format. I'm not sure how to share them on this site. I'll try to figure it out.

    Tom Darnell, Sr.

    General Manager
    NANO NITROUS LLC
    "

  4. #29
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    Was up to 1am last night doing nitrous flow testing, and I would have loved to have something like the Nano on my test bench.

    Prep'ing bottles in the hot tank, then timing how long they can stay out in addition to logging/watching pressure certainly is a bunch of work. Especially when building jet maps with over 100 cells to fill...

  5. #30
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    Crickets? That isn't a good sign from Nano.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    Purge !



    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Crickets? That isn't a good sign from Nano.
    I do not think they know that you responded.

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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Sticky,

    I see nothing wrong with getting the facts from the source. But in this case, the source has re-enforced my point regarding pressurizing the bottles, then having to cool them down when they get warmer. There is no bleed-off system for the pressure, so the regulator is in fact regulating pressure only in one direction.

    Personally, I would be keeping bottle pressure away from 1050psi.

    The statement about adding fuel is really confusing. Assuming the jetting at say 950 PSI at the starting line is correct, (AFR/EGTs good) why would you have to increase the jetting down track? (Physically impossible) The only reason I can think of is if you will run lean on the top end due to over-pressurization, so you need to start with a 20-25% richer mixture at the start. Maybe I'm reading that the wrong way? Is the 20-25% more fuel needed because adding the Nano system pushes more nitrous through the system at 950psi than say a normal bottle at 950psi? How is that possible if the density of liquid nitrous is constant below 1069 PSI? (At least until you can cool it to -92 degrees C)

    Now that we know there are so many systems (1000) sold that could give us data to disprove my point, lets see some data. Lets see some nitrous pressure traces for real race cars going down the 1/4 mile, or say at Bonneville where it would be a huge advantage.

    Why is it that the real heavyweights in the nitrous world haven't, and won't endorse using Nano? I'd love to see support in writing from Mike Thermos, (Founder of NOS) Steve Johnson, Monte Smith, Jeff Prock, Brandon Switzer, ect. They have nothing to loose from a business standpoint, because they don't offer a competing product. But....they won't openly support using Nano? Why is that?

    I'm a data guy, so it would be most logical to convince me I'm wrong with data. Credentials, while impressive during a job interview, don't prove anything from a scientific perspective. Science is where I'd prefer to keep the focus of this discussion.
    I'm not why there are not more top racers using nano, is there anything about class regulations preventing it? They clearly do have some guys using it to success as their 6 second pro mod result shows.

    I really do not know enough about nitrous to comment either way, just providing what was sent to me.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by basar13 Click here to enlarge
    Purge! Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Sweet!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not why there are not more top racers using nano, is there anything about class regulations preventing it? They clearly do have some guys using it to success as their 6 second pro mod result shows.

    I really do not know enough about nitrous to comment either way...
    me either but this is riveting- can't wait to see where this discussion goes....

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    basar, have you noticed a performance difference w/ your dp vs your old single fogger setup w/ just a 100 shot? are you running meth as well?

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by basar13 Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Looks good, and it's actually pretty useful to be able to see that.

    Now...what you didn't say is that that wasn't your first "take" filming the purge. Normally a purge takes 2 seconds before you can see it with a "fresh" hookup.

    Sorry for taking your thread so far off topic with Nano discussion, I think the WON components need to be the focus here.

  12. #37
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    No worries, it was a nice discussion what are your comments on my lines & setup any weak points ?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by krnnerdboy Click here to enlarge
    basar, have you noticed a performance difference w/ your dp vs your old single fogger setup w/ just a 100 shot? are you running meth as well?

    The reason for converting to DP was safety, but of course performance benefits are obious in dp system..Click here to enlarge i am in between of using meth or toluene. Thanks

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

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    ^ You ditched the airbag?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by basar13 Click here to enlarge
    No worries, it was a nice discussion what are your comments on my lines & setup any weak points ?
    I've got all kinds of theories as to what will work well, and what won't, but the only way to really see is to test.

    One thing I might be inclined to do is run a relay to ground on the fuel pulsoid controlled by a push-button to be able to "prime" the fuel side.

    If you are targeting say a 75 shot, I've flow tested "50" jet at 50 psi to flow 7.6cc per second. A 2mm ID nylon line of say 30cm length will hold 0.93ml of fluid, so if you have 6 of them that are empty, it will take about 1 second to fill the lines before you see consistent output at the injection nozzle. While not exactly the case in real life, (There is some residual fuel left in the lines from previous use usually if the lines are setup downhill from the injector) it's still a factor to consider when placing the jet at the pulsoid.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    If you are targeting say a 75 shot, I've flow tested "50" jet at 50 psi to flow 7.6cc per second. A 2mm ID nylon line of say 30cm length will hold 0.93ml of fluid, so if you have 6 of them that are empty, it will take about 1 second to fill the lines before you see consistent output at the injection nozzle. While not exactly the case in real life, (There is some residual fuel left in the lines from previous use usually if the lines are setup downhill from the injector) it's still a factor to consider when placing the jet at the pulsoid.
    Won't the bottle pressure affect this?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Won't the bottle pressure affect this?
    We're talking about the fuel side, not the nitrous side.

    If you are talking about bottle pressure affecting power potential, that's a different topic, and one that many people have simply got wrong. The power is in the fuel, not the nitrous. If you are only flowing 50hp worth of fuel, you can flow 200hp worth of nitrous and you are still only going to have 50hp maximum power potential.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Won't the bottle pressure affect this?
    We're talking about the fuel side, not the nitrous side.

    If you are talking about bottle pressure affecting power potential, that's a different topic, and one that many people have simply got wrong. The power is in the fuel, not the nitrous. If you are only flowing 50hp worth of fuel, you can flow 200hp worth of nitrous and you are still only going to have 50hp maximum power potential.

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    more horsepower same old tires....


    Last edited by basar13; 01-14-2011 at 06:47 PM.

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    ^ You hit the limited pretty hard there?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    We're talking about the fuel side, not the nitrous side.

    If you are talking about bottle pressure affecting power potential, that's a different topic, and one that many people have simply got wrong. The power is in the fuel, not the nitrous. If you are only flowing 50hp worth of fuel, you can flow 200hp worth of nitrous and you are still only going to have 50hp maximum power potential.
    I see, but depending on the type of shot used the car may be compensate with fuel and therefore the bottle pressure will affect the fuel delivered, right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I see, but depending on the type of shot used the car may be compensate with fuel and therefore the bottle pressure will affect the fuel delivered, right?
    You're speaking of dry systems shooting through the MAF, or the ZEX kits which use nitrous pressure to regulate fuel flow.

    On a normal wet kit, nitrous pressure should never dictate how much power potential the fuel system has.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    You're speaking of dry systems shooting through the MAF, or the ZEX kits which use nitrous pressure to regulate fuel flow.

    On a normal wet kit, nitrous pressure should never dictate how much power potential the fuel system has.
    Yep, I just wanted to make it clear that in certain situations that would be applicable.

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    Very good read. Makes me want to do a DP setup on the V8 for fun and run something like a 100 shot..

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