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Thread: Z4M DP Nitrous

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    Z4M DP Nitrous

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    My new exhaust system :bow:

    [YOUTUBE]VVBtQs90kRY[/YOUTUBE]



    Cold start

    My gauges for safety Click here to enlarge
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    Defi exhaust temp. Defi intake manifold pressure, Aem oil pressure, Aem Air Fuel Ratio, Aem volt.

    And of course best of all Max extreme race. Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge

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    Damn, that's sick, nice to see more BMW M guys playing with nitrous. Any dynos? What size shot is that?

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    Holy $#@! sooo nasty! Hpf should get there hands on one of these Click here to enlarge
    JB4LIFE

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    Whoa!

    Nice, very nice!

    DP is the way to go on the S54, what shot is that? Minimum is 120 I believe.

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    direct port is the only way to go.... And with ITB's it is the best set-up period for a fast street car. get a bottle heater and a bottle opener and you're all set.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 600whp S4 Click here to enlarge
    direct port is the only way to go.... And with ITB's it is the best set-up period for a fast street car. get a bottle heater and a bottle opener and you're all set.
    Forget the bottle heater crap, Nano.

    I wish I got around do doing a direct port nitrous setup on my M3. Would have run 10's early on and not had half the headaches. Thing is, it runs out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Damn, that's sick, nice to see more BMW M guys playing with nitrous. Any dynos? What size shot is that?
    Thanks 100 hp currently, i did not dyno it. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 600whp S4 Click here to enlarge
    direct port is the only way to go.... And with ITB's it is the best set-up period for a fast street car. get a bottle heater and a bottle opener and you're all set.
    i do have bottle heater Click here to enlarge You can see in the picture

    Also: My car weighs 1250 kg and i i have 4.1 ratio diff. Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Forget the bottle heater crap, Nano.
    There's a reason why not ONE pro-mod runs the Nano system.

    Shanon Jenkins tried it a couple years ago...and holy crap did he burn stuff up.

    It works...but regulation is very poor.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    There's a reason why not ONE pro-mod runs the Nano system.

    Shanon Jenkins tried it a couple years ago...and holy crap did he burn stuff up.

    It works...but regulation is very poor.
    What is the nitrous bottle regulator usually set at for a shot like this? 900psi? What is the storage PSI of a good nitrous tank?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    What is the nitrous bottle regulator usually set at for a shot like this? 900psi? What is the storage PSI of a good nitrous tank?
    How bottles are set up for racing is a bit of a secret for most teams. It's a huge topic.

    10 lb bottles: It depends on how full it is, but usually just above 600 psi in storage at "room" temp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    There's a reason why not ONE pro-mod runs the Nano system.

    Shanon Jenkins tried it a couple years ago...and holy crap did he burn stuff up.

    It works...but regulation is very poor.
    Why is the regulation poor? I thought it was constant pressure?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why is the regulation poor? I thought it was constant pressure?
    But the nitrous/HPA ratio might run towards the air side as the nitrous runs low.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    But the nitrous/HPA ratio might run towards the air side as the nitrous runs low.
    I don't see why, it is supposed to push it all out, every last drop so to speak.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't see why, it is supposed to push it all out, every last drop so to speak.
    That never happens.

    Please keep in mind that if a bottle is properly prepared, and consumption is limited to about 2 lbs on a 10lb bottle during a single pass, pressure drop is minimal. To refill the bottle, you just add more nitrous.

    The Nano system advocates running the bottles without any heating, using the nitrogen push system to bring pressure to target. But....you have to vent all the bottle contents to atmosphere before refilling with nitrous.

    Last time I checked everyone's bottle mounting location, it is pretty commonly at a 30 degree angle in the trunk. For the dip tube to be completely submerged in nitrous, you need by volume about 2 lbs of nitrous. That means when you go to fill a bottle, you will lose a minimum of 2lbs of nitrous on every fill. The alternative is to install the nitrous bottles upright, but I just don't see that opportunity present in too many street vehicles. Secondly, you need to refill the nitrogen cylinder roughly every 2 bottle changes. I have yet to see a nitrous shop stock regulated nitrogen for refilling. It's possible, but I bet most people will either end up going to a second location to fill the "other" bottle, or have to spend even more money getting a regulated Nitrogen filling station set up at home.

    The typical Nano result is a system that runs lean on the top end, with more heat present that most people don't have the ability or know-how to pull timing from the engine to compensate for. The regulation isn't as good as advertised.

    All of the racers that don't have a stake in selling Nano systems at their business, have sold the Nano system and moved back to multiple bottles.

    There are also some cases of Nano systems causing the engine to run rich due to over-pressurization of the bottle. Can anyone guess why this would happen?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Last time I checked everyone's bottle mounting location, it is pretty commonly at a 30 degree angle in the trunk. For the dip tube to be completely submerged in nitrous, you need by volume about 2 lbs of nitrous. That means when you go to fill a bottle, you will lose a minimum of 2lbs of nitrous on every fill. The alternative is to install the nitrous bottles upright, but I just don't see that opportunity present in too many street vehicles. Secondly, you need to refill the nitrogen cylinder roughly every 2 bottle changes. I have yet to see a nitrous shop stock regulated nitrogen for refilling. It's possible, but I bet most people will either end up going to a second location to fill the "other" bottle, or have to spend even more money getting a regulated Nitrogen filling station set up at home.
    I see, but wouldn't it make more sense for the dip tube to be angled differently?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    The typical Nano result is a system that runs lean on the top end, with more heat present that most people don't have the ability or know-how to pull timing from the engine to compensate for. The regulation isn't as good as advertised.
    This is the first I have heard of this. Why can't this be compensated for though?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    All of the racers that don't have a stake in selling Nano systems at their business, have sold the Nano system and moved back to multiple bottles.

    There are also some cases of Nano systems causing the engine to run rich due to over-pressurization of the bottle. Can anyone guess why this would happen?
    Well the over-pressurization I can only guess having to do with a warmer bottle or with steel bottles that get warm.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I see, but wouldn't it make more sense for the dip tube to be angled differently?



    This is the first I have heard of this. Why can't this be compensated for though?



    Well the over-pressurization I can only guess having to do with a warmer bottle or with steel bottles that get warm.
    The dip tubes inside most bottles are already angled down....the problem is when you angle the bottle the pool of liquid nitrous gets shallower.

    Here's some examples of dip tubes from NX, NOS, and WON that I'm playing with:

    Click here to enlarge

    The over-pressurization of the nitrous bottle is a regulation issue. I have no first hand practical experience to comment with, but I have been informed by reliable sources of the issues. (They have data to support their comments)

    Nitrous, once you go above 1069 PSI, reaches it's critical pressure and actually becomes less dense.(More gas than liquid) This also can happen at 98 degrees F at lower pressures, which actually represents a situation INSIDE distribution lines when sharp poorly radiused corners are introduced.

    FYI: The critical temperature is defined as that temperature above which a gas
    can no longer remain liquid, regardless of the pressure applied.

    One way to minimize heat into the nitrous distribution lines is to use composite manifolds like OEM pieces.....or like the Carbon Fiber piece I'm working with for my race project.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    One way to minimize heat into the nitrous distribution lines is to use composite manifolds like OEM pieces.....or like the Carbon Fiber piece I'm working with for my race project.
    Exactly, I would say with a nano setup carbon bottles would be the way to go.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    The over-pressurization of the nitrous bottle is a regulation issue. I have no first hand practical experience to comment with, but I have been informed by reliable sources of the issues. (They have data to support their comments)

    Nitrous, once you go above 1069 PSI, reaches it's critical pressure and actually becomes less dense.(More gas than liquid) This also can happen at 98 degrees F at lower pressures, which actually represents a situation INSIDE distribution lines when sharp poorly radiused corners are introduced.
    I do not doubt your sources, I just want to learn more about this as if I go down the nitrous route I intended to do it with a Nano system.

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    Sticky,

    I think there needs to be a clarification of terms before I comment any further.

    What we are talking about is a "nitrogen push" system. Nano is not the only way to do this, and there are some very clever people that have devised their own method of doing this.

    The problems that nitrogen push systems seek to solve are inconsistent bottle pressure due to changing ambient conditions, and pressure drop due to nitrous consumption. I haven't seen data that proves the Nano system does this consistently, so I don't feel comfortable risking $20+k engine builds on "promise" and advertising copy. If you are set on trying Nano out, I look forward to your unbiased opinion with it.

    I'm not really a big fan of CF bottles for street applications. Quite simply, they are just too darn expensive, and they suck at holding heat. (Pressure drops really fast with them) In race applications, there is one particular advantage to them aside from weight....but I can't really talk about that because my source swore me to secrecy.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    What we are talking about is a "nitrogen push" system. Nano is not the only way to do this, and there are some very clever people that have devised their own method of doing this.
    That's right, I was specifically referring to the Nano system which is a push system. There are several ways to approach this as you mentioned and it certainly does not have to be through them. They just are the most well known to be doing this commercially.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    The problems that nitrogen push systems seek to solve are inconsistent bottle pressure due to changing ambient conditions, and pressure drop due to nitrous consumption. I haven't seen data that proves the Nano system does this consistently, so I don't feel comfortable risking $20+k engine builds on "promise" and advertising copy. If you are set on trying Nano out, I look forward to your unbiased opinion with it.
    Why would it not do it consistently though? On paper, sure seems like it should function that way.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    I'm not really a big fan of CF bottles for street applications. Quite simply, they are just too darn expensive, and they suck at holding heat. (Pressure drops really fast with them)
    They are light and expensive but do suck at holding heat. That is why I feel a push system is the best compliment to them.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    In race applications, there is one particular advantage to them aside from weight....but I can't really talk about that because my source swore me to secrecy.
    Freaking tease!

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    Very interesting read so far...

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    Sticky,

    I'll use Orlando Florida as an example with average temps in January of 72 degrees during the day, and 50 degrees at night.

    So you have your system mounted in your vehicle, and decide to do some runs on your local drag strip's test and tune session at night. You open the Nano valve and pressurize the nitrous bottle to 950 PSI. The temp is 50 degrees, you make 2 runs, then head home for the night.

    The following day at 10am in the morning you find ambient temps at 65 degrees and your nitrous bottle is reading 1100 PSI.

    See the problem?

    It's a one-way regulator because it has 3000 PSI behind it. Secondly, even if it was a 2 way regulator, there's a one-way check valve installed on the nitrous bottle. That's a street based example.

    On race cars that consume lots of nitrous, you are at the mercy of the size of the Nitrogen Push port. At some point, that 4mm port isn't going to be able to flow enough nitrogen through it to keep up with the nitrous leaving the bottle through a 10mm port. See the problem?

    Ok...so you add another bottle and another nitrogen push system. How much does this weigh?

    There are limits to the Nano system, and they don't tell you much about them....

    And I can tell you from spending LOTS of time at the track that their "test bench" example of pressure drop just doesn't mimic what happens in the real world. Bottles have LOTs of time to recover between rounds because the transmissions and engines need to sit with fans on them. On my 330Ci I would run 4-5 passes on a bottle with a progressive 150 shot and a heater and simply switched to a new bottle when I saw the MPH drop. During that time the biggest influence on my MPH and ET was my driving not bottle pressure.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    I'll use Orlando Florida as an example with average temps in January of 72 degrees during the day, and 50 degrees at night.

    So you have your system mounted in your vehicle, and decide to do some runs on your local drag strip's test and tune session at night. You open the Nano valve and pressurize the nitrous bottle to 950 PSI. The temp is 50 degrees, you make 2 runs, then head home for the night.

    The following day at 10am in the morning you find ambient temps at 65 degrees and your nitrous bottle is reading 1100 PSI.

    See the problem?
    That makes perfect sense. It is a problem.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    There are limits to the Nano system, and they don't tell you much about them....
    No, they do not, because on paper it sounds perfect.

    I like the idea of instant arming and extra safety by not having a heater. Pressure inconsistency is a big problem though.

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    Nano contacted me and wrote this response. Note, I am not picking sides or anything like that just giving Nano their say:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    There's a reason why not ONE pro-mod runs the Nano
    system.

    Shanon Jenkins tried it a couple years ago...and holy crap did he burn stuff
    up.

    It works...but regulation is very poor.
    Shannon Jenkins to date has never run a NANO system. They have experimented
    with there own types of push systems with dead head regulators. There system
    will actually build pressure as they go down track. Our system is not a push
    it is a pressure compensation system. We use a variable rate regulator. Our
    system holds pressure at 950psi down track or until you let off of the
    button. This is where most of our technology sits. Our regulation is
    actually very consistent. Between 30-80 degrees it will hold your static
    pressure at 1050psi. When it is 90+ degrees outside we use cooling bags,
    ice, shade, damp rag to keep the bottle below 85.

    Also, our fastest pass in a pro-mod to date is a 6.18 .

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    That never happens.

    Please keep in mind that if a bottle is properly prepared, and consumption
    is limited to about 2 lbs on a 10lb bottle during a single pass, pressure
    drop is minimal. To refill the bottle, you just add more nitrous.

    The Nano system advocates running the bottles without any heating, using the
    nitrogen push system to bring pressure to target. But....you have to vent
    all the bottle contents to atmosphere before refilling with nitrous.

    Last time I checked everyone's bottle mounting location, it is pretty
    commonly at a 30 degree angle in the trunk. For the dip tube to be
    completely submerged in nitrous, you need by volume about 2 lbs of nitrous.
    That means when you go to fill a bottle, you will lose a minimum of 2lbs of
    nitrous on every fill. The alternative is to install the nitrous bottles
    upright, but I just don't see that opportunity present in too many street
    vehicles. Secondly, you need to refill the nitrogen cylinder roughly every 2
    bottle changes. I have yet to see a nitrous shop stock regulated nitrogen
    for refilling. It's possible, but I bet most people will either end up going
    to a second location to fill the "other" bottle, or have to spend even more
    money getting a regulated Nitrogen filling station set up at home.

    The typical Nano result is a system that runs lean on the top end, with more
    heat present that most people don't have the ability or know-how to pull
    timing from the engine to compensate for. The regulation isn't as good as
    advertised.

    All of the racers that don't have a stake in selling Nano systems at
    their business, have sold the Nano system and moved back to multiple
    bottles.

    There are also some cases of Nano systems causing the engine to run rich due
    to over-pressurization of the bottle. Can anyone guess why this would
    happen?
    The NANO system does not run lean on the top end. The NANO system holds the
    pressure at 950psi through the run. When you tune your system using the NANO
    you must add 20-25% more fuel with the same nitrous jet. You also pull out
    the equivalent timing to compensate the added power.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Sticky,

    I'll use Orlando Florida as an example with average temps in January of 72
    degrees during the day, and 50 degrees at night.

    So you have your system mounted in your vehicle, and decide to do some runs
    on your local drag strip's test and tune session at night. You open the Nano
    valve and pressurize the nitrous bottle to 950 PSI. The temp is 50 degrees,
    you make 2 runs, then head home for the night.

    The following day at 10am in the morning you find ambient temps at 65
    degrees and your nitrous bottle is reading 1100 PSI.

    See the problem?

    It's a one-way regulator because it has 3000 PSI behind it. Secondly, even
    if it was a 2 way regulator, there's a one-way check valve installed on the
    nitrous bottle. That's a street based example.

    On race cars that consume lots of nitrous, you are at the mercy of the size
    of the Nitrogen Push port. At some point, that 4mm port isn't going to be
    able to flow enough nitrogen through it to keep up with the nitrous leaving
    the bottle through a 10mm port. See the problem?

    Ok...so you add another bottle and another nitrogen push system. How much
    does this weigh?

    There are limits to the Nano system, and they don't tell you much about
    them....

    And I can tell you from spending LOTS of time at the track that their "test
    bench" example of pressure drop just doesn't mimic what happens in the real
    world. Bottles have LOTs of time to recover between rounds because the
    transmissions and engines need to sit with fans on them. On my 330Ci I would
    run 4-5 passes on a bottle with a progressive 150 shot and a heater and
    simply switched to a new bottle when I saw the MPH drop. During that time
    the biggest influence on my MPH and ET was my driving not bottle
    pressure.
    Our system does not have a one way regulator. It is a variable rate
    regulator it reads pressure in the NANO bottle vs the pressure in the
    nitrous bottle.

    There is a lot of misleading in there. We have over 1000 systems out in the
    field today. I have been here 4 years since NANO has opened and I can assure
    that I would not have a career right now if it did not perform as we say. If
    you have any further questions I would be glad to answer them for you.

    Brad@NANO Nitrous LLC
    24/7 Tuning, Tech, Sales
    785-331-2390 Work
    785-760-2828 Cell
    www.nanonitrous.com
    Sales@nanonitrous.com

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    Thanks for emailing them Sticky!

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