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  1. #1
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    JB4 Meth Integration Setup

    Hey guys,

    Wanted to put together a resource for JB4 meth users covering directions for setup, how integration works, etc. Will post some initial info here now and will update this thread as we go! This is as of the 11/29 interface posted tonight. Email me if you need the firmware.

    With the JB4 we've setup a dedicated analog input specifically for methanol control. This allows a flow sensor, like the CMGS/VC2 we support, to inform the JB4 exactly how much methanol is flowing at any given moment. This flow information is included as a logging channel called "meth" and mapped in a 0-100% format. For the more advanced users 100% = 2v. The typical output is .1v per 100ml/min giving a full sweep of 0-2000ml/min.

    Meth logging:

    1) Connect the CMGS/VC2 orange wire to pin #15 on the JB4 DB25 connector. If you are part of the first batch of 100 alpha boards you must also connect a ~20k resistor in the wire to protect from voltage surges as the CMGS/VC2 turns on. The second alpha batch includes this resistor on the board itself. If you're unsure email in a photo of your board to ask.

    2) Set your CMGS/VC2 v1.07 or higher parameter #12 (5V output mode - orange wire) to 0. Enabling it to output .1v per 100ml/min of flow. If you are using an alternative flow sensor consult with your flow sensor vendor for the appropriate settings. If you are using a previous version of the CMGS/VC2 you will need to upgrade it to 1.07 or higher to take full advantage of this feature. Firmware v1.07 has been designed specifically for progressive methanol mapping and that feature was not included in their 1.06 and previous firmware. CM offers a mail in firmware update program. Email info@coolingmist.com for details.

    3) Using a normal map (1 or 2) do a series of WOT pulls with your meth enabled and observe the meth parameter in the logging software to ensure proper movement. With X scaling set to 100 note the highest percentage observed.

    Progressive mapping:

    Our alpha progressive mapping systems allows the JB4 to smoothly and precisely raise boost and related tuning as a function of methanol flow. You define how much boost can be increased by and what methanol flow is required before boost will be increased, and the JB4 increases boost as a linear function of methanol flow. If flow exceeds 2000ml/min an overflow failsafe is automatically triggered.

    To enable progressive mapping:

    1) Under the methanol tab set the "meth additive PSI" to the desired boost increase at full flow. A suggested starting point is 4psi. Note this field is currently not a decimal so you will need to enter 40 for 4psi, 35 for 3.5psi, etc. We will correct this in a future interface release. In addition we plan to add an autotuning function for this field in the future which will determine the appropriate boost increase based on timing and other DME feedback.

    2) Boost is added on top of the map 1 boost curve which is 13psi peak. So a value of 40 will provide 17psi peak. Peak boost is also subject to the boost limit set under user adjustment. If the base map plus your methanol additive add up to more than the boost limit you have defined the JB4 will automatically limit the boost target to 1/2psi less than your defined boost limit during operation.

    3) Fill in the "meth flow max" with something slightly lower than your maximum methanol flow. For example if you are seeing 40-45 you may want to select 40 here. This represents the point at which the JB4 will assume you are at your maximum flow and deliver the full meth additive boost increase. In the examples below with an M8 nozzle I'm seeing around 40% during max flow which corresponds to approx 800ml/min. The actual meth flow may be higher or lower than the voltage reading unless you carefully calibrate your flow sensor. Something most never do. So don't get too wrapped up in the actual voltage unless troubleshooting a specific problem or it's way off.

    4) Progressive methanol mapping is only active when map 3 is selected.

    Old school:

    For those of you who want an intermediate solution before you can upgrade your pre 1.06 CMGS/VC2, or for those using an alternative that provides only a simple high/low signal, we've made the JB4 backwards compatible. Entering a value of 1 under "meth flow max" will revert to JB3 logic where voltages higher than 2v will add the full boost additive.

    Attached are a few logs I took tonight playing around with the settings. The first log is shows adaption testing along with the meth flow in action, second is a series of runs where I disabled the methanol physically half way through the log, and the last is manually reducing the methanol flow using the controller settings and the JB4 changing it's target accordingly.
    Attached Images Attached Images       

  2. #2
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    Looks like it is working beautifully Terry, keep up the good work!

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    i cannot wait Click here to enlarge

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    Looking good!

    I guess I gotta get my hands on a JB4.. I shall call it RB4 though Click here to enlarge

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    lmfao!!!! hey terry not to be a dick in any way but will the people with rb's get first dibs on jb4 when its out of alfa testing

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    lol, i doubt it. its 2 different prodcuts by 2 different companies. I believe he already stated current JB3 owners have priority

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    lol, i doubt it. its 2 different prodcuts by 2 different companies. I believe he already stated current JB3 owners have priority
    yes sir

    and no matter where in the world areClick here to enlarge
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
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    Terry, can you post those up with the "throttle blade" value? Or whatever the actual throttle position is. (The one grabbed from the CAN)

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    Mike asked for one with those also. Here you go!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    I'm jb3 so I guess I'll just keep waiting Click here to enlarge need yo get my meth straightend out any ways

  11. #11
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    Thanks Terry, you're the man, exactly what I was looking for!

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    Okay after reading this a few times (keep in mind I'm a total newbie!), this is starting to make sense to me. What I do not understand is that each map has it's max boost which in this case is 13psi on map 1. So here is my question... it seems as if using this progressive meth mapping with the jb4 that you can increase the boost beyond the map's max boost while staying in that map. For example, 17psi is possible on Map 1. Is this correct?

    I'm sure that is not correct and that I am confused, but if I am correct then what is the point of using Map 2,3,4,5 etc? What happens if you are on Map 1 and you enter 70 for the meth additive and meth flow max? Does this mean that the boost peak would be 20psi with full meth flow on map 1?

    Sorry for this but I'm just a bit confused!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by crash32 Click here to enlarge
    Okay after reading this a few times (keep in mind I'm a total newbie!), this is starting to make sense to me. What I do not understand is that each map has it's max boost which in this case is 13psi on map 1. So here is my question... it seems as if using this progressive meth mapping with the jb4 that you can increase the boost beyond the map's max boost while staying in that map. For example, 17psi is possible on Map 1. Is this correct?

    I'm sure that is not correct and that I am confused, but if I am correct then what is the point of using Map 2,3,4,5 etc? What happens if you are on Map 1 and you enter 70 for the meth additive and meth flow max? Does this mean that the boost peak would be 20psi with full meth flow on map 1?

    Sorry for this but I'm just a bit confused!
    The meth mapping is only active on map 3, which has a normal peak boost of 13psi. And then the meth additive is added on top of that to arrive at your desired meth target of say 17psi.

    In terms of map numbers we're not sure yet what we're going to use for what. At the moment map 1 is 13psi, map 2 14.5psi, map 3 is a meth map, map 6 is a user defined map, and map 7 is 16.5psi (a conservative race map). We will either make map 1 autotuning or throw that feature on map 4 or 5.

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    So if I am on map 7 and I enter a value of 20... that means that max meth flow the boost will peak at 18.5psi. Is this correct? Not that I would want to run that high of a boost, but was just wondering.

    Also, since Map 3 is a meth map and not Map 1, will meth still flow at Map 1? Does this simply mean that meth flow/boost will not be able to be calibrated unless on map 3. Am I getting this right? Click here to enlarge

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    The other thing that needs to be cured is the flow sensors....I was talking to themyst the other day and he's been through 3 labonte sensors..seems with high concentration of meth the plastic swells inside of it.. People are going to keep triggering their failsafes if they run high % ratios.

    Just something for users to keep in mind.

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    I hope my Coolingmist flow sensor does not do this. I mean the people at Labonte knew that meth was going to be going through these sensors....... does not make much sense! It should be able to stand up to 100% meth otherwise they should not sell this product.

  17. #17
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    The other thing that needs to be cured is the flow sensors....I was talking to themyst the other day and he's been through 3 labonte sensors..seems with high concentration of meth the plastic swells inside of it.. People are going to keep triggering their failsafes if they run high % ratios.

    Just something for users to keep in mind.
    Yeah to be honest they all suck. The CM sensor with a 30% mix of water is solid and their warranty on them is great. Just takes a few seconds to swap out as it unplugs from the harness. But I've been working with CM on a new better solution. If it works will solve this problem once and for all...

  18. #18
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    I hope so! The kits themselves are rock solid, just the flow sensors are the biggest weak spot in the entire system.

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by crash32 Click here to enlarge
    So if I am on map 7 and I enter a value of 20... that means that max meth flow the boost will peak at 18.5psi. Is this correct? Not that I would want to run that high of a boost, but was just wondering.

    Also, since Map 3 is a meth map and not Map 1, will meth still flow at Map 1? Does this simply mean that meth flow/boost will not be able to be calibrated unless on map 3. Am I getting this right? Click here to enlarge
    If you are on map 7 and enter a value of 20 you'll get no additional boost with meth flow. That function only works when map 3 is selected. Similarly if you are on map 1 you'll also get no additional boost when meth is flowing.

    The next step is having the JB4 itself trigger the methanol control (vs settings on a stand alone controller) but will have to wait until alpha is over. We have bigger fish to fry. Click here to enlarge

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    I hope so! The kits themselves are rock solid, just the flow sensors are the biggest weak spot in the entire system.
    It's frustrating as generally customers just ignore the flow failsafe due to their reliability problems. They keep the boost cranked up assuming all is fine with flow not understanding the meth spool up concerns. Just in those logs above you can see it takes a good second to get to full flow. Bad times with full boost and advance from an adapted meth system. With the JB4 we're trying to make it harder to ignore and easier to setup.

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    Now perhaps those ignoramus lemmings understand why there was a hitch in my boost log running Procede back in the whole progressive vs. basic argument. The meth needs to start flowing before the proper meth boost targets are hit. Terry - have you considered allowing non-meth boost target to say 15psi? That will ease that transition and "hitch" in the boost targeting once meth is flowiing. Once I raised the non-meth map to 15psi, the hitch was gone.

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    I like 11psi down low up to 13psi up top as the average car can take that at full advance without major knock retard. Part of the spool up safety with progressive meth (if it never spools up). Works very well with a progressive controller set at 8psi min to 13psi max. Click here to enlarge

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    You forget though, by having the target at 15psi, you eliminate the hitch. Granted, you are more than likely testing on 91 octane piss gas, vs the 93 octane we have out East... could explain our difference of opinion.

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    What was the hitch?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    What was the hitch?
    Since both progressive meth setups work by transitioning a pump boost target to a meth boost target, it should apply in both situations. There is a delay from where the meth starts flowing to when it actually hits the charge.

    in your case, since 13psi is the target, it will hang at the 13psi target for a fraction before hitting the set meth target. The same situation existed on my setup where the pump gas boost target was set low (13.5 psi). The hitch was eliminated by increasing the pump gas boost target to 15psi.

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