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  1. #26
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    Hey Tony, this is a little bit of a digression, but since you established the ceiling for airflow/shaftspeed for stage 2 turbos, I'm curious if you have a chart for, or have developed a feel for, shaft speed and back pressure relative to boost and RPM. I love aftermarket pro-tuning, wouldn't do without it, but I've long suspected that many tuners are just playing with fuel/timing/boost and if you're lucky Vanos, until it's not making power without looking at all of the variables about how the machinery itself is handling the extra power. I'm not sure it really matters a ton unless you have a super aggressive tune or you're tracking, but I'm curious as to your opinion none the less. Backpressure guidelines are fairly generic, you probably don't have a spec'd max shaft speed but that should be pretty much a hard wall (might not be able to exceed given the stock frame) over which things just explode.

    What's the max boost/rpm for 1:1 boost/backpressure ratio? 1:1.5? 1:2? As far as I know, you're the only person to have this data or the potential to get it. We might like more aggressive tunes but the truth is the truth....

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    Hey Tony, this is a little bit of a digression, but since you established the ceiling for airflow/shaftspeed for stage 2 turbos, I'm curious if you have a chart for, or have developed a feel for, shaft speed and back pressure relative to boost and RPM. I love aftermarket pro-tuning, wouldn't do without it, but I've long suspected that many tuners are just playing with fuel/timing/boost and if you're lucky Vanos, until it's not making power without looking at all of the variables about how the machinery itself is handling the extra power. I'm not sure it really matters a ton unless you have a super aggressive tune or you're tracking, but I'm curious as to your opinion none the less. Backpressure guidelines are fairly generic, you probably don't have a spec'd max shaft speed but that should be pretty much a hard wall (might not be able to exceed given the stock frame) over which things just explode.

    What's the max boost/rpm for 1:1 boost/backpressure ratio? 1:1.5? 1:2? As far as I know, you're the only person to have this data or the potential to get it. We might like more aggressive tunes but the truth is the truth....
    Loose rule of thumb is anything over 180-190K shaft speed you are out of your max efficiency range for any given turbine. Looking at my latest street log. right before we hit the dyno(I like to look at street logs they represent more accurate numbers).

    We stay below 1:1 Boost to BP up to right around 3400 and 24 psi, that happens at right around 160K shaft speed. From there BP over takes boost, slowly at first until you reach max boost, which seems to be back pressure related as we saw by clamping the gates and no change in psi. We reach 30 psi by around 4000RPM, BP is 37psi, shaft speed 186045, thats a decent shaft speed for very close to max boost, right around the peak efficiency range. By 4500 we are still at 30 psi by BP has jumped to 46 psi, and shaft speed 197K. From this point, boost quickly begins to taper, yet shaft speed and BP both raise quickly as exhaust becomes backed up in the housing. By 5000 RPM, boost is down to 27.5, BP is 50 psi, and shaft speed is at 203K. From here, BP and shaft speed basically slowly creep up, while boost plummets. By 6000K boost is down to 21.5K but BP is still at 50 psi, and shaft speed is up to 209K. 6500 19 psi, 51 BP, and 213K shaft speed. 6800 18.5 psi, 51 BP, 213K. That's basically redline, Shaft speed climbs to 215K before I lift (we have seen as high as 230K on cast wheels).

    So basically on these tiny turbos you reach peak boost and peak efficiency very early as you should, they are happy as clams. In a normal system with a free flowing properly sized turbine, housing, and free flowing exhaust, the gate would open at that point, slow down the turbine to control boost, and BP would stay nice and steady or drop as the gate lets more pressure out, keeping everything healthy. In this system, everything just starts backing up, until you reach critical levels at redline. Do this over and over and over and you can see you lose turbine end piston rings, and journal bearings due to the insane pressure, and shaft speeds.

    Our data while way more than others is pretty narrow as far as we have just been logging extreme tunes, and attempts at max power levels, when I was doing HPFP testing I didn't bother taking AEM logs as all I needed was HPFP numbers which come from the cobb. When I have time we can do some aem logs at much lower tunes, and see where we end up. Would be interesting, we are also going to try a few things, to see if we can make the turbos a little more free flowing and pick up some more boost. Yes we want more power...Click here to enlarge

    If you want to download AEMdata software, I can send you this log, and the maths I created for them and you do your own viewing, they are pretty cool logs.

    To keep things alive, I wouldn't like to see BP get much over 2:1 for extended periods of time, and shaft speeds below 200K, closer to 190.

    I hope that helps man, let me know if you need anymore info.

  3. #28
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    Repped. I really hope the community recognizes that, although the tune is admittedly extreme, this data is actually extremely important. I'm shocked that more tuners aren't hounding you for info which amounts to steps towards the ideal boost/timing line. I'll shoot you an email, I'll download the AEMdata stuff.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Would be interesting, we are also going to try a few things, to see if we can make the turbos a little more free flowing and pick up some more boost. Yes we want more power...Click here to enlarge
    So... Stage 2 batch 3?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by skyguy Click here to enlarge
    So... Stage 2 batch 3?
    No nothing like that. This would be something we would be doing for the shop car in house, just for R&D purposes. We would never suggest anyone run their turbos at these levels we are using. We literally eliminated all boost control for the car on the name of science, just curious if a few tweaks would show some power gains. We will try them when we have some extra time to swap turbos out, we are most likely going to run these on the car with the final piston shredder map and see how long before we break them, then swap them out.

  6. #31
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    I assume clipped turbine wheels?
    Change is constant

  7. #32
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    I'd take that car over the majority of the single cars if you drive it more than 4 days a week
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
    Current - 16 Jeep Wrangler - Few Mods
    Looking for a n54 project e90/e82

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    I'd take that car over the majority of the single cars if you drive it more than 4 days a week
    This car is so damn fun. I literally giggle when I really hammer down on the street. Its like you are constantly sitting on an angry angry beast, and you are a right ankle flex from letting him loose at anytime.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    No nothing like that. This would be something we would be doing for the shop car in house, just for R&D purposes. We would never suggest anyone run their turbos at these levels we are using. We literally eliminated all boost control for the car on the name of science, just curious if a few tweaks would show some power gains. We will try them when we have some extra time to swap turbos out, we are most likely going to run these on the car with the final piston shredder map and see how long before we break them, then swap them out.
    Is it technically any different then people running the stock turbos as hard. I have been maxing out my stockers for years now and they are still humming along with no issues. Is the issue wear and tear on the turbos or are you worried about the midrange torque breaking something
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Is it technically any different then people running the stock turbos as hard. I have been maxing out my stockers for years now and they are still humming along with no issues. Is the issue wear and tear on the turbos or are you worried about the midrange torque breaking something
    Unless you are pushing every last psi the turbos can make through the entire RPM band meaning 30 psi in the midrange and 90-95 WGDC to redline as much boost as they can make, you are not pushing them as hard as we are. The map we are running right now, we literally physically clamped the gates shut and boost didn't change, meaning that's its, they cannot work any harder. At these levels the turbos are constantly in overspeed when doing hard pulls, and BP reaches 3:1 during these same pulls. We are doing this to see how the turbos hold up, so far so good. If your stockers are still alive after years, you are not pushing them that hard, or you just have one of those sets that refuse to break, we have seen that in the past too on other platforms. Looking at your numbers, you are making good power, but the turbos seem to be happy, so don't change anything!

  11. #36
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    well, i am changing to a single soon but these stage 2s have me intrigued I must say.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  12. #37
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    room to add a teeny EWG to the stage 2's? haha
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    impressive results. It's pretty wild to see what an upgraded set of stock twins can do peak power wise with a little more fuel. I'm interested in seeing track times to compare the quick peak but dropping power of these with the single kit's slower to come on but constantly rising power.
    I definitely want to see this type of comparison as well. Looking forward to your track numbers on this type of setup, @VargasTurboTech .
    335i Coupe, JB4 (G4, map 5) DCI and 40% E85 blend: 2009 BMW 335i Coupe: 12.173 @ 109.490 MPH

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GetSomeE92 Click here to enlarge
    I definitely want to see this type of comparison as well. Looking forward to your track numbers on this type of setup, @VargasTurboTech .
    Barring any major problems we will be hitting the track on Weds night. So we should have results by then, good, bad, or ugly. Also track I am going to, once you break 11.49 you need a roll bar, so I may be going home early if break that but still are not dialed in all the way to run faster, so I better not blow..Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 08-11-2014 at 06:00 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Barring any major problems we will be hitting the track on Weds night. So we should have results by then, good, bad, or ugly. Also track I am going to, once you break 11.49 you need a roll bar, so I may be going home early if break that but still are not dialed in all the way to run faster, so I better not blow..Click here to enlarge
    Hahaha. Maybe they'll let it slide, in the name of science. Good luck!
    335i Coupe, JB4 (G4, map 5) DCI and 40% E85 blend: 2009 BMW 335i Coupe: 12.173 @ 109.490 MPH

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Also track I am going to, once you break 11.49 you need a roll bar, so I may be going home early if break that but still are not dialed in all the way to run faster, so I better not blow..Click here to enlarge
    Here's to you going home early! Click here to enlarge

    GL!
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    Driving back from the strip rev matching because my clutch is welded to the flywheel. Got 2 runs in, first time at the track in mover 10 years, slicks were hooking nice, but my skills were beyond rusty. First run 12.0 bad launch, missed 3rd, forgot to use no lift shift. Bad shifn points you name it. Second run, 11.6 123, decent launch, 1.77 60 ft, forot to use nls, bad shift points, 3rd run I was expectin to at least get done in the 11.3-4 range, I raised the 2 step 200 rpm, took .5 lb out of the slicks, was going to make sure I kept my foot planted, learned shift points from logs. Do burn out, stage, clutch floor it, 2 step does not engage, $#@!, light are flashing on the tree, I try it again. I know they won't restage me, but instead of just taking a mulligan, I drop the clutch at 7000 rpm after no 2 step again. Of course lights them up, try a quick shift to second, lights em up, short shift it into 3rd too late, clutch pedal no longer works. Rookie driving, and for whatever reason no 2 step cost me a clutch and getting dialed in. I would have had at least 4-5 more runs to get it figured out. Instead I'm drinking a beer waitin for traffic so I don't have to stop. Sorry guys, wish I had more fun news.

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    @VargasTurboTech What size slicks were you running? I've always had trouble at the track with the 6MT too, its a pretty steep learning curve...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @VargasTurboTech What size slicks were you running? I've always had trouble at the track with the 6MT too, its a pretty steep learning curve...
    Running 275 Hoosiers, the slicks are BADASS. The 11.6 run I launched at 3600 and the car dead hooked in first with all that torque, it actually bogged a little which is why I moved the 2 step up a couple hundred RPM. The rest of the run is where my rusty driving skills put me at 11.6. I didn't shift out of first fast enough, didn't stay in second long enough, and didn't use NLS for either of those shifts. Had high hopes for the 3rd run as I was learning and getting better. When the 2 step didn't engage at the line and the tree was going I basically just panicked and dropped the clutch, all it took was a 1-2 shift like that and voila, disc and flywheel are now one piece. If I wouldn't have blown it there and just taken that run as a loss I would have gotten it down to at least 11.4 with some more practice, not too mention the first runs were at 80 degrees, at night the temps dropped to low 60's.

  20. #45
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    What clutch? As long as its a steel flywheel should be no problem to resurface and throw a new disk in. Launching manuals is always such a pita. That's why I keep the 135i automatic with a smaller turbo for more torque despite the 100whp top end penalty. Click here to enlarge
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    What clutch? As long as its a steel flywheel should be no problem to resurface and throw a new disk in. Launching manuals is always such a pita. That's why I keep the 135i automatic with a smaller turbo for more torque despite the 100whp top end penalty. Click here to enlarge
    Spec 3+, do a google search, so common on these cause they are full disc metallic, they dont like excessive heat. I know its not going to cost a lot to fix, but just a hassle pulling the tranny, I honestly may go the twin disc so its the last clutch I buy for a while. With these slicks I can launch it hard, once I get the tire pressure right, and launch RPM, I am positive I can rip off 1.6 60 fts without a problem. I managed a 1.7 on my second attempt with no practice, and initial air, and rpm settings. This was done at 100% full weight, I wanted to simulate what I can on the street, I even left $#@! in the trunk. With some weight reduction, and more practice, this should be a quick car

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    Yeah on a 1.6 I'm sure you can run in the low 11 range. Everyone gets stuck at 11.0 for one reason or another myself included. With manuals it's just hard to launch singles, with stock frame turbos they just don't make enough power, and with single automatics they lag off the line without a huge torque converter. When Famoso opens up for private days I'll go give the 135i a whirl. I think if anything has a chance to run a good times it's this setup.
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Yeah on a 1.6 I'm sure you can run in the low 11 range. Everyone gets stuck at 11.0 for one reason or another myself included. With manuals it's just hard to launch singles, with stock frame turbos they just don't make enough power, and with single automatics they lag off the line without a huge torque converter. When Famoso opens up for private days I'll go give the 135i a whirl. I think if anything has a chance to run a good times it's this setup.
    What does a private day cost?

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    I think it's around $5000 for up to 20 cars, or $10000 for up to 80 cars. Something like that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Running 275 Hoosiers, the slicks are BADASS. The 11.6 run I launched at 3600 and the car dead hooked in first with all that torque, it actually bogged a little which is why I moved the 2 step up a couple hundred RPM. The rest of the run is where my rusty driving skills put me at 11.6. I didn't shift out of first fast enough, didn't stay in second long enough, and didn't use NLS for either of those shifts. Had high hopes for the 3rd run as I was learning and getting better. When the 2 step didn't engage at the line and the tree was going I basically just panicked and dropped the clutch, all it took was a 1-2 shift like that and voila, disc and flywheel are now one piece. If I wouldn't have blown it there and just taken that run as a loss I would have gotten it down to at least 11.4 with some more practice, not too mention the first runs were at 80 degrees, at night the temps dropped to low 60's.
    Isn't this a quick time pro drag radial?
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