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Thread: Race gas or E85

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    Race gas or E85

    Ok so soon im going to the track and im not sure which route I should go. Ive used a mix of E85 before, 5 gallons E85 and the rest 91, with great results. The car felt like an absolute monster when I used the mix along with meth. When I did that I was at a 51 additive for meth. Now I have an option to use race gas MS109. Now I ask this question because a friend of mine has ran MS109 with a 70 meth additive and had great results but has not used E85. I guess im just looking for some opinions on what might/will have better results. If you've used both your opinion is appreciated.

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    We have used MS109, and then switched over to 100% E85 using our HPFP upgrade, we picked up over 40WHP with minimal tuning changes going to 100% E85. Its cheaper and we have seen it make more power, I would stick with E85.

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    if you are notprepared with theflashandpumpe85

    Iwould use thems109to bemore relaxedand enjoy theday.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Depends on how much money you want to spend. E85 is cheap but the stock fuel system has limitations; MS109 is $$ however the stock fuel system won't be overloaded by the volume of MS109 demanded by the motor.

    Tony (VargasTurboTech) has his HPFP "Shotgun" upgrade in addition to a LPFP upgrade (can't remember what he's running there) installed on his car, the former of which isn't available yet. Ergo he can run 100% E85--at present we don't have that option.

    Have you upgraded your LPFP system yet? Talk to SteveAZ about an upgrade if you haven't, then my advice would be to slowly increase your E85 content in a E85/pump gas blend until you see results you're happy with. Be sure to keep an eye on your HPFP pressures while you're increasing E85 content as well--don't want to crash the system.

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    E85/blend is like running race gas on a daily basis for a fraction of the price. Running MS109 all the time will get expensive and isn't necessarily going to make any more power than E85. As EvanL mentioned there will be some fuel system upgrades depending on the concentration you plan to run but generally up to E60 or so all you will need is a LPFP upgrade and backend flash.
    E92 335is DCT

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    At the moment I haven't done the LPFP upgrade. I do plan on getting it soon though. At the moment the only thing keeping me from going the MS109 route is how expensive it is. For the event im going to if it does provide the better results ill drop the money though. So until I get the LPFP upgrade should go with the MS109+meth for better results or do you think the E85 blend+meth would still be better?

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    For your specific one time use, 109 > e85. You won't make more power with 109, but here is why I say 109>e85

    1. Fuel system limitation
    2. 109 is 100% processed, e85 isn't, you could be getting e40-50-60-70-80.
    3. 109 is more consistent ^
    4. 109 is also easier to find for most people

    If you're going to be running it often, E85 is the way to go, its cheaper and makes more power, as long as you get good e85.




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Legionofboom Click here to enlarge
    2. 109 is 100% processed, e85 isn't, you could be getting e40-50-60-70-80.

    Thought the minimum on an E85 pump was E70?

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    People are always talking about inconsistent E85, if you are in Cali your E85 is super consistent, we have tested it throughout the year it never budges. Its not a little cheaper its a LOT cheaper than MS109, but yes it will tax the hell out of your fuel system, as you need 30% more. If you do not even have a LPFP upgrade, then yes 109 is really your only choice, if you are running meth, you can get away with more E85 and still be ok. You just have to find your limits, but with the stock LPFP, they wont be very high.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    Thought the minimum on an E85 pump was E70?
    Generally it is though I have seen someone report it lower.

    MS109 is relatively hard to find at least in my local area and I have an E85 pump 4 miles from my house. I find the blends to be very consistent as long as you are checking for a change based on seasonal blends. For me its E77 in the fall/winter and E84 in the spring/summer. I run E60 mixing it with 93 octane at the pump. The last time I filled up it was 2.83/gal for E85. I am not sure what MS109 is going for these days but I am sure this is considerably cheaper.
    E92 335is DCT

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Legionofboom Click here to enlarge
    For your specific one time use, 109 > e85. You won't make more power with 109, but here is why I say 109>e85

    1. Fuel system limitation
    2. 109 is 100% processed, e85 isn't, you could be getting e40-50-60-70-80.
    3. 109 is more consistent ^
    4. 109 is also easier to find for most people

    If you're going to be running it often, E85 is the way to go, its cheaper and makes more power, as long as you get good e85.
    depends where you are

    over here (Australia), if it's not consistently E85, it must be labelled 'flex fuel' - one brand of gas station is 'flex fuel' and can be as low as 70% but no lower

    another is E85, and is MINIMUM E85, sometimes up to E90.

    ED: and one other difference... E85.. the remaining 15% is 87AKI/91RON, not great fuel

    with expensive RACE E85, you can get 109 or C16 or whatever, depending what brand you use

    so theoretically you can make a bit more power on race E85, with SLIGHTLY higher octane... real world? rofl. Unless, of course, we're talking top tier drag racing or something.
    Last edited by Flinchy; 08-05-2014 at 05:54 PM.
    boop

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    If E85 is available then I'd go with that.

    Was going to say the same thing Flinchy, e85 here is e85. Although there are only 5 e85 pumps in my state, luckily one is not too far from me.
    They are also switching them all to race blend which is mixed with 98ron instead of 91ron, although I've also heard practically it won't make much difference.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    depends where you are

    over here (Australia), if it's not consistently E85, it must be labelled 'flex fuel' - one brand of gas station is 'flex fuel' and can be as low as 70% but no lower

    another is E85, and is MINIMUM E85, sometimes up to E90.

    ED: and one other difference... E85.. the remaining 15% is 87AKI/91RON, not great fuel

    with expensive RACE E85, you can get 109 or C16 or whatever, depending what brand you use

    so theoretically you can make a bit more power on race E85, with SLIGHTLY higher octane... real world? rofl. Unless, of course, we're talking top tier drag racing or something.
    I believe United is converting all of their E85 tanks to the new E85 that has the other 15% blended with 98. Something about having a contract that requires them to produce a product like that, so rather than install additional E85 tanks, just converting all of them over.

    https://www.facebook.com/unitedpetro...40857779337953
    Last edited by kabnine; 08-06-2014 at 01:52 AM.

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    Nice so looks like the majority is saying e85 is the way to go. Ill just do about 5 gallons and increase the meth additive. This is probably the last week or so ill be without the LPFP so I should be fine until then. Thanks for the advice guys.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kabnine Click here to enlarge
    I believe United is converting all of their E85 tanks to the new E85 that has the other 15% blended with 98. Something about having a contract that requires them to produce a product like that, so rather than install additional E85 tanks, just converting all of them over.

    https://www.facebook.com/unitedpetro...40857779337953
    awwwwwwwesome!

    united E85 was already amazing stuff (and there's a station 5-10 mins from where i live)

    making race fuel even more of a waste of money

    even the expense of upgrading the fuel system to flow enough fuel... you'd save that back in cheaper fuel in a couple of track days tops.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marcus335i Click here to enlarge
    Nice so looks like the majority is saying e85 is the way to go. Ill just do about 5 gallons and increase the meth additive. This is probably the last week or so ill be without the LPFP so I should be fine until then. Thanks for the advice guys.
    like i say above.. the cost of using MS109 over time will massively outweigh the cost of fuelling upgrades to run E85, and you get the added bonus of being able to run at full power whenever you want, instead of having to swap fuels around.
    boop

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    I usually run MS109 at the track since I trust it more and have stock fuel system. Might have to look into some of the VTT fueling options to run straight e85 at all times.

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    Race gas is fantastic in it's properties and consistency, easier to flow than E85 as well with less side effects like o2 fowling and injector buildup. However totally depends on how often you want to use it in terms of expense, MS109 can rack up a bill REAL quick.

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    Interesting, whenever we talk about E85 nothing is ever mentioned about the benefits between E85 corn vs E85 sugarcane. One is obviously superior to the other.

    Most people think when they hear E85 it denotes corn corn corn fuel.

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    I may well be wrong, I am by no means an expert in fuels, but to my understanding E85 is slang for a high ethanol content fuel produced from fermentation of cellulose sugar. As not all states require that E85 is minimum of 85% ethanol though ideally it would be. The difference between sugar cane ethanol and corn based ethanol is minimal to none as ethanol is produced by fermenting cellulose sugar with yeast the only difference between the two is where it originates, corn based E85 starts as corn and is ground up and mixed with water then cooked to produce sugar that contains cellulose, where as sugar cane E85 is made from not just sugar cane but many by products of various mass manufactures like paper by products of twigs and other plants that contain this same cellulose when broken down then the same process of fermenting the sugar with yeast and creating ethanol.

    Over all both forms are made by fermenting cellulose sugar into ethanol largest difference at the moment is cost effectiveness to produce corn at this time is much more cost effective from a fuel company stand point.

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    Surprised no one has brought up the fantastic in-cylinder cooling properties of ethanol. Flame speed and EGT are both beneficiaries. Race gas isn't going to help you much on that front.

    So yea...E85 FTW unless you have money exploding out of your pockets.
    E88 N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Motiv HTA 3586r Tial .82AR/Motiv Port Fuel/BMR 3.5" Exhaust/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/ST Coilovers/M3 FCA + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/AA Strutbrace/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Surprised no one has brought up the fantastic in-cylinder cooling properties of ethanol. Flame speed and EGT are both beneficiaries. Race gas isn't going to help you much on that front.

    So yea...E85 FTW unless you have money exploding out of your pockets.
    The in cylinder cooling properties of DI contribute to an increase in volumetric efficiency over PFI, and E85 compounds the benefit. With a good tune and enough turbo that's probably why Tony saw 40whp gains, that's not surprising at all. IIRC e85 showed like 6 or 7% increase in VE over conventional gas when using direct injection, vs PFI that showed no change going from gas to E85. All due to in cylinder cooling, and the hotter the air temps the bigger the difference was. Good stuff.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Surprised no one has brought up the fantastic in-cylinder cooling properties of ethanol. Flame speed and EGT are both beneficiaries. Race gas isn't going to help you much on that front.

    So yea...E85 FTW unless you have money exploding out of your pockets.
    SOOOOOOOOO true, but if I did have money exploding out of my pockets... RACE GAS DD LOL

    Good point aswell patsClick here to enlarge

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    As I stated up top, we ran MS109 and put it on the dyno 517WHP, made no changes, ran 100% E85 right out of the pump with our Shotgun upgrade, picked up 30-40WHP, lowered EGT's, and IAT's across the board. This really isn't even a debate, if you have the ability to run 100% E85 there is NO reason to run race gas, well unless you like paying 4 times the price and making less power with more heat...Click here to enlarge

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    Every test I see has

    E85 at about 5-8% more power than MS109, IATs a good 8-10 degrees lower, yada yada... once the Eurodyne POS I have works I am going full E85

    also fact

    My car with 93 octane 60 to 130 mph 7.5-7.7
    My car with E20 (2 gall E85 and 14 gall 93 oct) 60 to 130 mph 7.2-7.4
    2005 Porsche 996 TTS RWD - Eurodyne 60-130 in 6.50s
    2015 Audi A3 2.0 TFSI - Eurodyne 0 - 100 in 10.67s
    2015 McLaren 650S (RHD) - UK - 1/3rd owner yet to drive


    Click here to enlarge



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