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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    IP? Nothing new has been invented here... no offense to PTF/Motiv at all -I think their kit looks FANTASTIC, plain & simple, but this isn't revolutionary new technology. IP? The angles and clearances on compressor blades on a Garrett turbo. Not a basic manifold. Now I do agree that the PTF/Motiv guys don't want to leave a trail of bread crumbs on how to build one of these things for any old company (ZNS? lol), but what I see is more of a standard proper implementation of existing concepts and designs. Nothing much new here, just correctly done existing ideas. Some guys will probably read that as an insult; it is not. Manifold design, O2 sensor placement, what spools a turbo... all of this is very well understood professionally, just not always implemented correctly at the enthusiast level (us). You don't always see it optimized in production because of design constraints -space/cost/etc.

    Anyway, as such, some more info would tend to be received as "proof" of excellence in performance rather than some secret concoction that only the mad scientists at PTF/Motiv have been able to figure out. That's just silly.

    Post some more info, this is a cool kit and we wanna see more stuff about it.
    Nothing patentable maybe but you don-t just hand out design-level drawings and rev history of your super cool new product to make potential customers feel good about it. If you spent months of R&D and $$$ developing a product through numerous iterations it is IP far as I am concerned. Let all the copycats make the same msitakes why make life easy for them?

  2. #102
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajsalida Click here to enlarge
    Nothing patentable maybe but you don-t just hand out design drawings of your super cool new product to make customers feel good. If you spent months of R&D and $$$ developing a product through numerous iterations it is IP far as I am concerned. Let all the copycats make the same msitakes why make life easy for them?
    No one needs to see design drawings lol. I mainly just thought it'd be cool to see a few pics of the earlier manifolds they went through, if they were tubular, etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by carcars Click here to enlarge
    you should investigate more


    I saw a video of a dyno jet
    With a graph? If so, post it.
    E92 Bren Tune / E90 PTF Tune / E91 Stockish and slow AF

    Got Boost?

    Click here to enlarge

  4. #104
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajsalida Click here to enlarge
    Nothing patentable maybe but you don-t just hand out design-level drawings and rev history of your super cool new product to make potential customers feel good about it. If you spent months of R&D and $$$ developing a product through numerous iterations it is IP far as I am concerned. Let all the copycats make the same msitakes why make life easy for them?
    What are you talking about? This isn't a level 1 design review. We're talking about happy little manifolds making happy little horsepower graphs. Proof. Not proof of every step they took (re-read my previous post; no trail of breadcrumbs), but some data on what they do have and why it's considered "the best". No one asked for design drawings. That's ridiculous.

    Unfortunately, with your point of view, it appears that you're sort of shoehorning any of us that have a good head on their shoulders and a healthy amount of skepticism into a corner where we either love the kit or we're looking for IP. BS. There is a third option; back claims up with some supporting info. That's what we want to see. This kit easily looks the nicest... cleanest... A+ on presentation... now some more info please!

    BTW, again, my personal view point, in case any of you are reading my post as more aggressive, is that it's a beautiful kit and I think it will perform very well based on my rudimentary knowledge of some spinny things that compress air.

  5. #105
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    What are you talking about? This isn't a level 1 design review. We're talking about happy little manifolds making happy little horsepower graphs. Proof. Not proof of every step they took (re-read my previous post; no trail of breadcrumbs), but some data on what they do have and why it's considered "the best". No one asked for design drawings. That's ridiculous.

    Unfortunately, with your point of view, it appears that you're sort of shoehorning any of us that have a good head on their shoulders and a healthy amount of skepticism into a corner where we either love the kit or we're looking for IP. BS. There is a third option; back claims up with some supporting info. That's what we want to see.

    BTW, again, my personal view point, in case any of you are reading my post as more aggressive, is that it's a beautiful kit and I think it will perform very well based on my rudimentary knowledge of some spinny things that compress air.
    Relax bud, not shoehorning anyone into anything. I just don't believe it is very smart making details like design iterations public even before the product is available is in anyone's best interest. Graphs and dynos sure. Reasoning for tech decisions sure. However, let's see what PTF has to say it is their baby.

    edit: I was responding to Terry's request for "photos/schematics" and data supporting design revs etc., I though that was a but too much IP for this stage of the product release IMHO. Esp. on something that may be easy to copy. Looks like a great kit and maybe the best kit yet.
    Last edited by ajsalida; 08-05-2014 at 05:19 PM.

  6. #106
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    This is great discussion here from the community. I think we can all appreciate the amount of R&D that goes into a good commercial product.

    That's being said, the sunk R&D costs is not the concern of the consumer (e.g. the Neo Geo or Cell processor). The bottom line is, remove turbo from the cost and you have a $4-5k manifold which is sold for 1/7th for other platforms (the same is true for the FFTEC and others). It then just becomes a customer decision and opportunity for the market (competitors, demand, etc.) To react or not.

    This will be a good year.
    Change is constant

  7. #107
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jake@PTF Click here to enlarge
    a 625 kit for 10k. For 10k you can have our kit, tuning, and a custom dyno tune and thats for a 750 or 900 kit.
    Apples and oranges.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    the sunk R&D costs is not the concern of the consumer (e.g. the Neo Geo or Cell processor).
    How can R&D costs not be the concern of the customer? Any company has to recover development costs on the product they produce unless a specific customer is covering the upfront non-recurring engineering (NRE - which I highly doubt is the case here). At the simplest view, you look at the gross margin of a product and you'd better make darn sure that the GM multiplied by your expected volume covers your initial R&D plus on-going marketing, sales/admin costs, etc. Basic return on investment. And if you want to be really picky, you should take in to account the time-value of money - that initial investment to develop the kit is worth more than someone paying you $ two years down the road for the kit.

    Bottom line, I don't think it is fair to say they are charging too much for the manifold itself - the cost of the manifold is far more than just the material itself.

    -Rich
    2010 E90 LCI 335i Black Sapphire (his)
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  9. #109
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    So is this kit actually released or just a sneak peak?

  10. #110
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jake@PTF Click here to enlarge
    a 625 kit for 10k. For 10k you can have our kit, tuning, and a custom dyno tune and thats for a 750 or 900 kit.
    With all due respect I was just commenting on the guy that said a SC kit for the M3 is twice as much...not true and its annoying people still say this. I have nothing against you kit, in fact, it think its fantastic and look forward to some dyno numbers and hopefully, some local people to me, running it!!!!
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

  11. #111
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Apples and oranges.
    yeah, one option has a lot more complex+long term RnD process to create retail sale item #1 , a lot more individual, expensive items, both custom and OTS

    the other is a supercharger kit.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    How can R&D costs not be the concern of the customer? Any company has to recover development costs on the product they produce unless a specific customer is covering the upfront non-recurring engineering (NRE - which I highly doubt is the case here). At the simplest view, you look at the gross margin of a product and you'd better make darn sure that the GM multiplied by your expected volume covers your initial R&D plus on-going marketing, sales/admin costs, etc. Basic return on investment. And if you want to be really picky, you should take in to account the time-value of money - that initial investment to develop the kit is worth more than someone paying you $ two years down the road for the kit.

    Bottom line, I don't think it is fair to say they are charging too much for the manifold itself - the cost of the manifold is far more than just the material itself.

    -Rich
    Ha! Love that I got negative repped on this. Apparently business sense is looked down upon by some on here...

    -Rich
    2010 E90 LCI 335i Black Sapphire (his)
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  13. #113
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    Here's a positive rep for ya. I agree

  14. #114
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajsalida Click here to enlarge
    Sure they could do that (after destroying a welded manifold that is not sold separately). What you don't want to do is give them a rev history and all the reasoning behind why you discarded a bunch of other approaches, AND the drawings for current product.
    I don't see it that way. This is a low volume product so knock-offs are not overly likely. And if someone wanted to they'd just buy one and copy it exactly. Sadly a lot of Chinese suppliers do just that on higher volume products.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  15. #115
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    This is great discussion here from the community. I think we can all appreciate the amount of R&D that goes into a good commercial product.

    That's being said, the sunk R&D costs is not the concern of the consumer (e.g. the Neo Geo or Cell processor). The bottom line is, remove turbo from the cost and you have a $4-5k manifold which is sold for 1/7th for other platforms (the same is true for the FFTEC and others). It then just becomes a customer decision and opportunity for the market (competitors, demand, etc.) To react or not.

    This will be a good year.
    Normally R&D costs are added up and then divided among the projected unit sales as part of the non-recurring costs. If the resulting R&D pushes the cost up that the product has to be priced over market to be viable, then whoever approved the project in the first place should be fired. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  16. #116
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    yeah, one option has a lot more complex+long term RnD process to create retail sale item #1 , a lot more individual, expensive items, both custom and OTS

    the other is a supercharger kit.
    L O L

  17. #117
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    IP? Nothing new has been invented here... no offense to PTF/Motiv at all -I think their kit looks FANTASTIC, plain & simple, but this isn't revolutionary new technology. IP? The angles and clearances on compressor blades on a Garrett turbo. Not a basic manifold. Now I do agree that the PTF/Motiv guys don't want to leave a trail of bread crumbs on how to build one of these things for any old company (ZNS? lol), but what I see is more of a standard proper implementation of existing concepts and designs. Nothing much new here, just correctly done existing ideas. Some guys will probably read that as an insult; it is not. Manifold design, O2 sensor placement, what spools a turbo... all of this is very well understood professionally, just not always implemented correctly at the enthusiast level (us). You don't always see it optimized in production because of design constraints -space/cost/etc.

    Anyway, as such, some more info would tend to be received as "proof" of excellence in performance rather than some secret concoction that only the mad scientists at PTF/Motiv have been able to figure out. That's just silly.

    Post some more info, this is a cool kit and we wanna see more stuff about it.
    Fantastic post, now we just want to see a little proof of what they're saying. That's all to be honest.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by carcars Click here to enlarge
    you should investigate more


    I saw a video of a dyno jet
    With all due respect, I think that's the problem. If I'm going to be shelling out 8k for a kit, I would like some info readily available at a google click.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    With a graph? If so, post it.
    I'm just excited/anxious to see the graph as well. Just cause I'm a vendor now doesn't change the fact that I'm an enthusiast at heart and this is how I started.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  18. #118
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    L O L
    glad you saw the humour in it hahaha
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    How can R&D costs not be the concern of the customer? Any company has to recover development costs on the product they produce unless a specific customer is covering the upfront non-recurring engineering (NRE - which I highly doubt is the case here). At the simplest view, you look at the gross margin of a product and you'd better make darn sure that the GM multiplied by your expected volume covers your initial R&D plus on-going marketing, sales/admin costs, etc. Basic return on investment. And if you want to be really picky, you should take in to account the time-value of money - that initial investment to develop the kit is worth more than someone paying you $ two years down the road for the kit.

    Bottom line, I don't think it is fair to say they are charging too much for the manifold itself - the cost of the manifold is far more than just the material itself.

    -Rich
    Including the time value of money is not being picky, it should be the norm. Add the normal profit and compensation for the risk to get to the required return for the investment. With the estimated sales volumes the estimated Net Present Value of the product must be positive for the company in order to accept the project. However, the profitability (/loss) will obviously remain uncertain, since the customers are not concerned enough about the induced costs or the profit (/loss) levels of the company to pay for the sunk R&D and what ever costs the company may need to pay... Click here to enlarge

    So, you just proved Ghost's point - the sunk R&D costs is the concern of the company rather than the consumer. When making the purchase decision, the consumer is concerned about the benefit of the product for him being higher than the price and other related costs (installation). Defined more accurately, the benefit is the Marginal Utility (which is subjective).

    Sunk costs should never play a role in either the company's or the consumer's decision making.

  20. #120
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I don't see it that way. This is a low volume product so knock-offs are not overly likely. And if someone wanted to they'd just buy one and copy it exactly. Sadly a lot of Chinese suppliers do just that on higher volume products.
    Of course they can, I notice they did just that with the BMS OCC. I see copies of it all over eBay. My point is simply the PTF product isn't even available to the public yet, why hand out schematics and make it easier for copycats BEFORE they can even buy one to destroy and copy. Give explanations of design decisions and dynos out the ass, just not something that helps somebody do knock offs before you can even sell one. I am not suggesting PTF mislead or hide anything. It is precisely because this item may be so easy to copy that I am suggesting holding off on release of those details.

    I happen to think this kit is a game changer, maybe make a lot of the other approaches obsolete. The manifold design is key to that, protect it for as long as you can. Unlike say a FFTEC manifold which is hugely labor intensive and really obvious when you use sub-par welders and materials (eg see recent ZNS kit thread), this manifold is CNC'd and will be knocked off immediately if not sooner.

    It may be it becomes like DP's, you have your OBX dirt cheap poor quality, your VRSF somewhat better quality still very cheap, then your AR design.

    We'll see what happens when kits get into customer hands.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    With a graph? If so, post it.
    you should look into facebook motiv, there this video.


    regards
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by carcars Click here to enlarge
    you should look into facebook motiv, there this video.


    regards
    I'll look. If there is no dyno then you fail.
    E92 Bren Tune / E90 PTF Tune / E91 Stockish and slow AF

    Got Boost?

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I'll look. If there is no dyno then you fail.
    don't bother....there is video of the OverRev car on the dyno...you hear it. that's about it.

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    if you build it, they will come.
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
    Current - 16 Jeep Wrangler - Few Mods
    Looking for a n54 project e90/e82

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    How can R&D costs not be the concern of the customer? Any company has to recover development costs on the product they produce unless a specific customer is covering the upfront non-recurring engineering (NRE - which I highly doubt is the case here). At the simplest view, you look at the gross margin of a product and you'd better make darn sure that the GM multiplied by your expected volume covers your initial R&D plus on-going marketing, sales/admin costs, etc. Basic return on investment. And if you want to be really picky, you should take in to account the time-value of money - that initial investment to develop the kit is worth more than someone paying you $ two years down the road for the kit.

    Bottom line, I don't think it is fair to say they are charging too much for the manifold itself - the cost of the manifold is far more than just the material itself.

    -Rich
    I wish I could throw some rep points your way. This is business and budgeting 101. Not accounting for all your cost up front. This is how a lot of start-ups fail.

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