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  1. #26
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    Shocker, stripped-out purpose-built race car with concrete suspension, steel girder roll bars, sticky race slicks, and tons of downforce beats a street car. We should all know by now that this is expected. This is a cool comparison but meaningless.

    Also, this is really the only time the M3 was a real "race car for the road"....the E36 and E46 were nothing of the kind, and both basically had warmed-over series production engines. Yes, I know...a FWD 2 series really sucks. But other than that, I have no problem with what BMW is doing...we already know that CF-intensive cars are coming very soon, weight will drop sharply after that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    And yawn, take it away Sticky. We are all just pawns on your board anyway. Motorsports is what you say it is on this board. Have a nice day man, I do not want to argue with someone who just wants to tell everyone their opinions are meaningless, talk about taking all the fun out of posting on any given thread when you have to worry about the Mod coming in and telling you your opinion doesn't matter nor is it valid because M = Motorsports. Last time I checked motorsports were about fun, and going fast. But being in loud old vibrating beasts as a daily driver, that is not always fun. But I guess this thread is not about actual comparisons of older fast cars and newer fast cars, its only about whatever you want it to be. I got to get back to work. I am now honestly gun shy about posting about anything these days, even if its something fun and pointless, as Uncle Sticky will just come out to the backyard and tell us we are wrong and stop horseplaying. Weeeeeeeeee
    I don't know why you are getting upset. The M division made things like the E30 M3 for Motorsport. M stands for Motorsport. It isn't about comfort. It's about kicking ass on the racetrack.

    I didn't say your opinion isn't valid. I provided my perspective. If it differs from yours why does that bother you?

    On a racetrack a motorsport derived vehicle such as the E30 M3 DTM car is potent. I expect M cars to be built with roadcourse competition in mind first, not the dragstrip.

    If one wants comfort or whatever else they should look to a different model. The debate about M's direction has raged for a while it really has nothing to do with you or me.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    It seems like every discussion turns to garbage now a days. I can't tell you how many full responses I have written to just delete and not post because it's just useless arguing with Sticky and seriously not worth my time. I have better things to do than get into endless arguments which always seem to end with S65 is the best engine ever, you are poor if you can't build it and that is your problem.

    Time for the neg rep machine to kick in.
    You've turned into a baby because you got your feelings hurt. If you can't take the heat don't stoke the fire.

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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    All I got to say is thank Fukc BMW didn't make a E92 M3 CSL. We would never hear the end of it.
    Well I mean they did do the GTS and CRT.

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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    You are seriously comparing a gutted race-purpose through and through welded chassis with a roll cage, race diff, uniball race suspension, race gearbox, a functional aero wing and race spec built engine on race tires against a 4-door fully equipped M3 on street tires?
    No Sport Auto is and it's a fun comparison. I'm providing my commentary on their comparison which I think was a great idea as it serves several purposes.

    The E30 M3 is 30 years old man. It's nothing like a modern DTM car, nothing. You can go buy an E30 M3 and turn it into what you see here. Yep, they pulled the interior and installed a cage. Wow, that turns any old car into a race car now eh?

    It has the S14 engine that came in the E30 M3. This is when the M division produced vehicles that... guess what? Had Motorsport emphasis.

    You are witnessing two M philosophies compared and the original M philosophy which may be 'old' is hardly outdated or obsolete on the road course as this video shows.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    And saying in the same alinea BMW has lost it's pedigree?
    Sorry man, you lost me there.
    Really? Others seem to understand it. M's are heavier, not offering as good of balance, and not offering motors designed for Motorsport competition. It's pretty easy to understand IMO.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    If you want to compare, find a video of this DTM racecar against a standard E30 M3.
    You will be hugely disappointed with the street version, I can tell you that.
    You can compare the ALMS E92 M3 to the street E92 M3 and make the same point. That stated, the E92 M3 was still built with motorsport competition in mind and there are links between them. Frankly, the E30 M3 and the E30 DTM car are far closer than the E92 M3 and the M3 ALMS car. And the latter are closer than the M4 and M4 DTM car.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Spend that much on an F80 to make it track worthy, including the cost of buying it, and you will drive circles around this DTM E30.
    Well if BMW actually raced anything they built today maybe we'd find out? Too bad they don't have that intention.

    This is a fun comparison and cool to see. I don't know why people get butthurt.

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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rooringhusky Click here to enlarge
    I guess you haven't been here long enough. We are all pawns to "Uncle Sticky" and Vargas has some great points.
    It's not a surprise here to see you chime in negatively about me rather than discuss the topic. Of course you will blindly agree because you're a hater. It's a consistent pattern and it just rather amuses me you are so angry.

    Maybe you could make a point about the actual topic? You'd rather just obsess about me though. Am I the last thing you think about before you go to bed too?

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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by leveraged sellout Click here to enlarge
    Also, this is really the only time the M3 was a real "race car for the road"
    So why are people missing this? Nobody else is impressed that a design from 30 years ago can do this?

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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You've turned into a baby because you got your feelings hurt. If you can't take the heat don't stoke the fire.
    Lol. Perfect example of when you can't argue anymore or lost your point you start insulting people. Seen it in plenty of threads. I have never once started slinging insults against you as it is a sign the argument is lost. When you lose the argument or discussion you start attacking the person. This is like college 101.
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Lol. Perfect example of when you can't argue anymore or lost your point you start insulting people. Seen it in plenty of threads. I have never once started slinging insults against you as it is a sign the argument is lost. When you lose the argument or discussion you start attacking the person. This is like college 101.
    Um my posts were all on the topic. You came in with your typical negativity. If you'd like to discuss the topic let me know. I have no problem debating an issue forever and I'm not sure when I've ever 'lost' my point.

    You have in several threads taken shots and continue to do so like a spiteful child. Hence your first post in the thread not being on the topic, right? Right. Then your second post being every discussion is 'garbage' right? Then you go on to say it is useless arguing yet you say when I lose my point I insult people? Um, that is exactly what you just did.

    Then you imply neg reps will kick in? For what, debating a topic? The only time neg reps kick in for you is when you do this type of thing. You're destroying the discussion and you're being a hypocrite. If this is your point I'm surprised you ever made it through college as I'm not impressed with your thought process.

    Now, if you want to continue taking the thread off course the neg rep machine sure will kick in. You will keep it on topic but since you are overmatched in any debate on the topic it probably is smart you delete your replies before posting them.

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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I have no problem debating an issue forever
    Yeah no $#@!, we all know that by now and it is proven time and time again. Starting to feel like Vargas, it's just a waste of time to even post as we know what will happen in every thread you are involved in which, oh wait is everyone. You should just be happy BMW is releasing more turbo charged engines which should increase your user base instead of going on and on about the S65. But wait without drama this forum would not exist.
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  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Yeah no $#@!, we all know that by now and it is proven time and time again. Starting to feel like Vargas, it's just a waste of time to even post as we know what will happen in every thread you are involved in which, oh wait is everyone. You should just be happy BMW is releasing more turbo charged engines which should increase your user base instead of going on and on about the S65. But wait without drama this forum would not exist.
    Feel however the hell you want I'm sick of your trolling. Before I open up a thread I know it will be you and rooringhusky with the typical pattern of negativity displayed once again here.

    Here is what is going to happen. You are getting a neg rep for taking the thread off topic pointlessly just so you can poke and prod again as if it accomplishes anything. You are banned from the thread after you see this post. If your sole purpose here is to be a negative influence then you will continue to receive neg reps until you adjust your behavior or you can no longer post. I do not care which happens first.

    I'm interested in the topic and video as I find it incredibly interesting. I don't find your whining and constant obsession with creating negative discussion about me nearly as interesting.

    End of story and back on the topic of the E30 M3 DTM car and the F80 M3 in an interesting track comparison.

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  12. #37
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    i think it would be a 2 second difference between the cars if this M4 was equipped with DCT.. maybe 1
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    Fun to see an old M beat a new one, but in a recent test in a Swedish magazine the new M3 behaved way worse than the new M4. So this might have been more in favor of "the new" if they used the coupe here?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    Fun to see an old M beat a new one, but in a recent test in a Swedish magazine the new M3 behaved way worse than the new M4. So this might have been more in favor of "the new" if they used the coupe here?
    It's an interesting point. How different can they really be?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's an interesting point. How different can they really be?
    +1. The M4 has a slightly lower center of gravity. That's it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    wimp

    this comparison isn't about daily driving. he never said your opinion is meaningless. M does stand for Motorsport. you $#@! a lot you know that?
    Seriously. I am getting tired of Vargus in just about every thread b*tching about sticky. If you don't like it take your business elsewhere.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's an interesting point. How different can they really be?
    On the track apparently quite a lot, mainly rear grip, I will look at track time diff once I get back from Normandy Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
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  18. #43
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    I know it is someone else's video.
    But you are comparing a full competition racecar to a modern street car.
    It is a fun comparison, but on a track where the racecar lives the streetcar will most likely lose, even to a 30 year old racecar.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It has the S14 engine that came in the E30 M3. This is when the M division produced vehicles that... guess what? Had Motorsport emphasis.
    Not at all the same engine. Same bottom, yes
    Changes to the engine:
    gearbox, diff, gearbox & diff cooling,
    entirely different engine internals, large oil pan or dry sump, airbox & alpha N piggy back, later ECU4 and dual spark packs, 8 injectors, slide throttles, different radiator, different exhaust system



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    M's are heavier, not offering as good of balance, and not offering motors designed for Motorsport competition. It's pretty easy to understand IMO
    Don't worry, I understood you. I just didn't understand your reasoning and how you got to that conclusion.
    BMW M's are still competing in lots of races. Look at the 24Hours of Spa Franchorchamps, where the Z4 GT3 lost by 7 seconds only to the Audi R8 LMS.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    the E30 M3 and the E30 DTM car are far closer than the E92 M3 and the M3 ALMS car.
    Dunno. The list of changes to make them into rule compliant racecars on both cars is pretty long.

    And the latter are closer than the M4 and M4 DTM car.
    DTM rules have changed a lot since 1990. The cars comply to these new rules.




    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well if BMW actually raced anything they built today maybe we'd find out? Too bad they don't have that intention.
    Duh?
    Race result 24H Spa Franchorchamps:
    1 Rast/Vanthoor/Winkelhock (Audi R8 LMS ultra) 527 laps
    2 Luhr/Werner/Palttala (BMW Z4) + 7.077s
    3 Mies/Nash/Stippler (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 1 lap
    4 Guilvert/Ortelli/Sandström (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 2 laps
    5 Buhk/Götz/Jaafar (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 4 laps
    6 Hommerson/Machiels/Bertolini/Cioci (Ferrari 458) – 7 laps
    7 Smith/McCaig/Bryant/Sims (BMW Z4) – 7 laps
    8 Wyatt/Rugolo/Lowndes/Piccini (Ferrari 458) – 8 laps
    9 Schneider/Primat/Verdonck (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 9 laps
    10 Abra/Osborne/Poole/Turner (Aston Martin Vantage) – 10 laps

    They are right there in between the other racecars...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is a fun comparison and cool to see. I don't know why people get butthurt
    I know it is just a comparison.
    Don't worry, I haven't been butthurt over anything on the Internet for many years.
    Maybe the reason why you are triggering all these reactions is because you (and Sport Auto) are comparing apples and oranges here.
    Last edited by DavidV; 07-28-2014 at 04:41 AM.
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  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    But you are comparing a full competition racecar to a modern street car.
    A competition race car based on a 30 year old street car with which it shares all of its major components with, yes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Not at all the same engine. Same bottom, yes
    Changes to the engine:
    gearbox, diff, gearbox & diff cooling,
    entirely different engine internals, large oil pan or dry sump, airbox & alpha N piggy back, later ECU4 and dual spark packs, 8 injectors, slide throttles, different radiator, different exhaust system
    How does this change the fact the engine is a naturally aspirated four-cylinder that comes under the hood of the E30 M3? Does the M4 DTM car use modified S55? No. Does the E30 M3 DTM car use a modified S14? Yes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    BMW M's are still competing in lots of races. Look at the 24Hours of Spa Franchorchamps, where the Z4 GT3 lost by 7 seconds only to the Audi R8 LMS.
    The same Z4 GT3 that uses a modified S65 engine under the hood of an E92 M3? The same Z4 GT3 that has nothing in common with a Z4M as a new Z4M does not exist?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Dunno. The list of changes to make them into rule compliant racecars on both cars is pretty long.
    You're insulting your own intelligence with this comment.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    DTM rules have changed a lot since 1990. The cars comply to these new rules.
    Do these rules explain why we do not have a Z4M? Do these rules explain why BMW does not race the M4?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Duh?
    Race result 24H Spa Franchorchamps:
    1 Rast/Vanthoor/Winkelhock (Audi R8 LMS ultra) 527 laps
    2 Luhr/Werner/Palttala (BMW Z4) + 7.077s
    3 Mies/Nash/Stippler (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 1 lap
    4 Guilvert/Ortelli/Sandström (Audi R8 LMS ultra) – 2 laps
    5 Buhk/Götz/Jaafar (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 4 laps
    6 Hommerson/Machiels/Bertolini/Cioci (Ferrari 458) – 7 laps
    7 Smith/McCaig/Bryant/Sims (BMW Z4) – 7 laps
    8 Wyatt/Rugolo/Lowndes/Piccini (Ferrari 458) – 8 laps
    9 Schneider/Primat/Verdonck (Mercedes SLS AMG) – 9 laps
    10 Abra/Osborne/Poole/Turner (Aston Martin Vantage) – 10 laps
    Ya you aren't understanding that the Z4 races with a motor built for the M3 and that BMW does not actually produce a Z4 with that motor.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Don't worry, I haven't been butthurt over anything on the Internet for many years.
    I wasn't specifically referencing you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    A competition race car based on a 30 year old street car with which it shares all of its major components with, yes.
    You know that this DTM version of the M30 is capable of Nordschleife times of 7min20 - 7min30 , right?
    No other M-car can do this, old or new.
    So not really a fair comparison.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Does the M4 DTM car use modified S55?
    Nope, the P66 is a 4L V8 with air restrictors. DTM regulations do not allow a turbo engine

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You're insulting your own intelligence with this comment.
    I just was not prepared to go through the lists



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Do these rules explain why we do not have a Z4M? Do these rules explain why BMW does not race the M4?
    Is that what's bothering you? My guess is that this is just marketing from BMW.
    They want to plug the M4 to the German public.
    Rememeber the DTM races and race cars are primarilly targetted to the German public.
    They are supposed to buy the DTM lookalikes.
    Can you even watch DTM races in the USA?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    You know that this DTM version of the M30 is capable of Nordschleife times of 7min20 - 7min30 , right?
    No other M-car can do this, old or new.
    So not really a fair comparison.
    M30?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Nope, the P66 is a 4L V8 with air restrictors. DTM regulations do not allow a turbo engine
    My point exactly. So the E30 M3 DTM car uses a motor you actually find in the E30 M3.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    I just was not prepared to go through the lists
    It's irrelevant as you can't turn the M4 into a DTM car hence my point.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Is that what's bothering you? My guess is that this is just marketing from BMW.
    They want to plug the M4 to the German public.
    Rememeber the DTM races and race cars are primarilly targetted to the German public.
    They are supposed to buy the DTM lookalikes.
    Can you even watch DTM races in the USA?
    What are you talking about? Of course I can watch DTM races. Not only can I watch DTM races in the USA DTM racing is coming to the USA.

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    M30
    I mean E30 off course. Argument stands.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    My point exactly. So the E30 M3 DTM car uses a motor you actually find in the E30 M3.
    DTM Regulations. All 3 competitors use a 90 degree 4L V8 by regulation.
    BMW had to specially develop this P66 engine to be able to compete in DTM in 2012
    You must be pleased to know that for 2016 DTM will switch to a 2L 4-cylinder turbo engine setup.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What are you talking about? Of course I can watch DTM races
    How the F*** should I know what sports you can watch across the pond. It was a genuine question.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    A competition race car based on a 30 year old street car with which it shares all of its major components with, yes.



    How does this change the fact the engine is a naturally aspirated four-cylinder that comes under the hood of the E30 M3? Does the M4 DTM car use modified S55? No. Does the E30 M3 DTM car use a modified S14? Yes.



    The same Z4 GT3 that uses a modified S65 engine under the hood of an E92 M3? The same Z4 GT3 that has nothing in common with a Z4M as a new Z4M does not exist?



    You're insulting your own intelligence with this comment.



    Do these rules explain why we do not have a Z4M? Do these rules explain why BMW does not race the M4?



    Ya you aren't understanding that the Z4 races with a motor built for the M3 and that BMW does not actually produce a Z4 with that motor.



    I wasn't specifically referencing you.
    LMFAO this is epic, pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. People lose track of what BMW M used to be now it's all about racing cars with motors they don't have Forza Horizon style instead of the $#@! they come with.
    Because racecar.

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    let's not forget the M3 GTR too lol
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    You must be pleased to know that for 2016 DTM will switch to a 2L 4-cylinder turbo engine setup.
    That has been delayed to 2017.

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