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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Don't start. Why bother?

    NA motors can't be turbo'd?

    What happens when you turbo the BETTER motor?

    It isn't about being NA purists. It isn't about anything like that.

    Race me Vargas. I'll show you what's up.
    Then its not a true M car according to your logic, therefore your S/C M3 is no longer a true M car since weight distribution is off from stock (50/50) and has FI

  2. #102
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    You know that if you have a 540whp car, the car that makes 540whp 2k before redline (with a smooth decent like above) will actually be faster than the one that makes it at redline. It's the same reason that a 520whp RB car is likely faster than a 600whp single turbo N54 (if not, definitely in the same conversation).
    This is not correct. The car making it at say 2k later can have much tighter gearing.

    You can't just make a blanket statement like this without seeing the curves, without seeing the gearing, the trans, etc.
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  3. #103
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Then its not a true M car according to your logic, therefore your S/C M3 is no longer a true M car since weight distribution is off from stock (50/50) and has FI
    No.

    I agree that adding a supercharger changes things but the E9X M3 does not come supercharged from the factory. You are still adding forced induction to the true M motor by my logic. See the difference?

    But we don't need to debate what a true M car or is not. IMO BMW no longer makes them so we have what we have.
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  4. #104
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Wow that right there is probably one of the most closed minded things I've read. The S54 has higher power records than the S65 so I don't know why you would say that on top of the fact that the S55 just came out and people haven't even begun tearing them down so you don't have any clue what the power capabilities will be, so how could you say things like "always" and "forever"? You're putting down a motor which capacities are unknown but thats what I would expect from an s65 fanboy. Have fun supercharging an s65 adding even more weight to an already heavier motor and screwing up weight distribution. The s65 would need a supercharger for tuned s55 performance and will never have that torque or torque deliver all for what a higher rev range? Thats only one aspect of an M car which clearly you don't understand.
    It's not closed minded at all it based on experience, knowledge, and evidence.

    The S54 has higher power records and that is acknowledged especially by me. However, the S65 has shown higher gains per pound of boost and additionally revs higher with greater displacement. The S54 can't defy physics.

    The reason you see power records with the S54 is due to large turbochargers, correct? What happens when you fit them to the motor that breathes better, revs higher, and is bigger? You get a new power record is what you get.

    I'm a BMW fanboy not an S65 fanboy. I happen to be able to recognize that everything you need to know to decide what motor will make the most power is already available to you. It is the same reason I state the S54 will always make more power than the S55. It revs higher, has an iron block, slightly more displacement, and will not have any direct injection limitations. The S55 would need revised heads, cams, fuel system upgrades, a sleeved block, etc., you might as well just start with the S54.

    No kidding an S65 needs a power adder to match a tuned turbo car, wow good stuff! Stunning revelation and so impressive. Take the turbos off the S55 and what happens? It needs the turbos to match tuned S65 performance then doesn't it? Which motor is based on a Motorsport design though and has actually won championships in competitive racing? Sounds to me like one was designed to be a beast on the track which I thought M stood for something related to that? Clearly it is you who doesn't understand .
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  5. #105
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's not closed minded at all it based on experience, knowledge, and evidence.

    The S54 has higher power records and that is acknowledged especially by me. However, the S65 has shown higher gains per pound of boost and additionally revs higher with greater displacement. The S54 can't defy physics.

    The reason you see power records with the S54 is due to large turbochargers, correct? What happens when you fit them to the motor that breathes better, revs higher, and is bigger? You get a new power record is what you get.

    I'm a BMW fanboy not an S65 fanboy. I happen to be able to recognize that everything you need to know to decide what motor will make the most power is already available to you. It is the same reason I state the S54 will always make more power than the S55. It revs higher, has an iron block, slightly more displacement, and will not have any direct injection limitations. The S55 would need revised heads, cams, fuel system upgrades, a sleeved block, etc., you might as well just start with the S54.

    No kidding an S65 needs a power adder to match a tuned turbo car, wow good stuff! Stunning revelation and so impressive. Take the turbos off the S55 and what happens? It needs the turbos to match tuned S65 performance then doesn't it? Which motor is based on a Motorsport design though and has actually won championships in competitive racing? Sounds to me like one was designed to be a beast on the track which I thought M stood for something related to that? Clearly it is you who doesn't understand .
    Just accept youre an s65 fanboy nothing wrong with that. The s65 may make more power per psi and it should considering youre combusting more air in more volume, BUT whos to say the s65 can take nearly as much psi as the s54? After all the s65 is an aluminum block. An inline configuration will ALWAYS be more naturally balanced and a V configuration one byproduct of which can create bearing issues. So if one were to take an s65 and an s55 and put it in say some random bimmer, I'm willing to be the s55 will beat the s65 around a track with the same chassis. So condsidering the s55 makes way more power, more torque and is lighter therefore having a much more potent power to weight makes it BETTER for motorsport. Revs are important but the difference between 7600rpm to 8500 rpm does not justify a 200 ftlb and 80 hp disadvantage. When youre racing youre racing to win not to see your tac pass 8k. You dont know ANY of the internal specs so how would you know what it would need to compete with an s54? You dont, youre speculating again since youre precious s65 is obselete. Besides the roots of M trace back to inline configurations not V like in the s65.

  6. #106
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Just accept youre an s65 fanboy nothing wrong with that.
    Right by making an argument based on the characteristics of the motors that makes me a fanboy even though I've owned both the S54 and S65 for some reason.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    The s65 may make more power per psi and it should considering youre combusting more air in more volume, BUT whos to say the s65 can take nearly as much psi as the s54? After all the s65 is an aluminum block.
    It's an aluminum block? No kidding. Someone said something about sleeves I could have sworn.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    An inline configuration will ALWAYS be more naturally balanced and a V configuration one byproduct of which can create bearing issues.
    Wow yes inline-6 motors can be smooth. So suddenly the BMW N52 is destroying performance V8's because it's soooo smooth? LOL get out of here man. Yeah, Ferrari has terrible issues with their high revving V8's don't they?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    So if one were to take an s65 and an s55 and put it in say some random bimmer, I'm willing to be the s55 will beat the s65 around a track with the same chassis.
    Then you're smoking some crack because the S65 already beat the S55 powered M3 around the Nurburgring. Guess what, so did the S54.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    So condsidering the s55 makes way more power, more torque and is lighter therefore having a much more potent power to weight makes it BETTER for motorsport.
    Where is your claim it's lighter? Where is your source? Thin air? Is that where you pulled it from? Because we know for a fact the S65 is lighter than the S54. Additionally, we also know the S65 has more motorsport success than either of these motors and was developed for this purpose. An I6 is also longer than a V8 so guess which motor sits further back in the chassis for better weight distribution? Yeah good stuff man you know better than the people who designed a V8 to replace an I6 that was getting beaten regularly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Revs are important but the difference between 7600rpm to 8500 rpm does not justify a 200 ftlb and 80 hp disadvantage.
    I want to laugh hard in your face here. Like really, really, really hard.

    7600 rpm - 400 lb-ft x 7600 / 5252 = 578
    8400 rpm - 400 lb-ft x 8400 / 5252 = 639

    Now that's just basic math that doesn't take into account the falling torque curve of the S55 or the flatter and higher revving curve of the S65 which means you will have less torque dropoff at redline in the car revving higher. You know what that means? A ton more power.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    When youre racing youre racing to win not to see your tac pass 8k. You dont know ANY of the internal specs so how would you know what it would need to compete with an s54? You dont, youre speculating again since youre precious s65 is obselete. Besides the roots of M trace back to inline configurations not V like in the s65.
    Uh I have the bore stroke. I've seen the torque curve. I have the specs. What do you mean? What else do I need? Your blessing?

    Oh yeah the S65 is obsolete because we can tune a turbo motor. Yep, the Gallardo V10 became obsolete because Porsche released the 991 Turbo. Oh wait, the Gallardo V10 pisses all over the newer 3.8 liter direct injection flat-6 and will forever no matter what its stock HP rating is or what the Turbo gets with a tune. Want to know why? It's the same reason the S65 will always and forever piss all over the S55 inline-6. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite simply an idiot.
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  7. #107
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Right by making an argument based on the characteristics of the motors that makes me a fanboy even though I've owned both the S54 and S65 for some reason.



    It's an aluminum block? No kidding. Someone said something about sleeves I could have sworn.



    Wow yes inline-6 motors can be smooth. So suddenly the BMW N52 is destroying performance V8's because it's soooo smooth? LOL get out of here man. Yeah, Ferrari has terrible issues with their high revving V8's don't they?



    Then you're smoking some crack because the S65 already beat the S55 powered M3 around the Nurburgring. Guess what, so did the S54.



    Where is your claim its lighter? Where is your source? Thin air? Is that where you pulled it from? Because we know for a fact the S65 is lighter than the S54. Additionally, we also know the S65 has more motorsport success than either of these motors and was developed for this purpose. An I6 is also longer than a V8 so guess which motor sits further back in the chassis for better weight distribution? Yeah good stuff man you know better than the people who designed a V8 to replace an I6 that was getting beaten regularly.



    I want to laugh hard in your face here. Like really, really, really hard.

    7600 rpm - 400 lb-ft x 7600 / 5252 = 578
    8400 rpm - 400 lb-ft x 8400 / 5252 = 639

    Now that's just basic math that doesn't take into account the falling torque curve of the S55 or the flatter and higher revving curve of the S65 which means you will have less torque dropoff at redline in the car revving higher. You know what that means? A ton more power.



    Uh I have the bore stroke, I've seen the torque curve, I have the specs, what do you mean? What else do I need? Your blessing?

    Oh yeah the S65 is obsolete because we can tune a turbo motor. Yep, the Gallardo V10 became obsolete because Porsche released the 991 Turbo. Oh wait, the Gallardo V10 pisses all over the newer 3.8 liter direct injection flat-6 and will forever no matter what its stock HP rating is or what the Turbo gets with a tune. Want to know why? It's the same reason the S65 will always and forever piss all over the S55 inline-6. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite simply an idiot.
    Haha wow you have the logic of a menstruating teenager. So my previous comment compared the s65 and s55 in the same car with the same chassis. Anyways, youre comparing lap times of the race versions of each m3 and even then they didnt beat it by much. Regardless if youre taking a regular m4 compare it to a regular e92 m3 or e46 m3. Once the lightened/more powerful version of the m4 comes out the gts and csl will be beaten what will you say then? And too bad the s65 only makes ~240whp at redline so youre calculations are meaningless, makes me want to laugh in your face right now, again im comparing the s55 and s65 obviously if you can make the same torque at higher rpm you'll make more power but the fact is the s65 doesn't make more that 295 ft lb, even its 8400rpm redline cant make up the power difference between the s55/s65. Besides last I checked knowing bore/stroke, torque curve , etc doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what metals are used, how theyre formed or their dimensions. Again you dont have anything to back up your s55 modding limitation assumptions. But I'm not gonna try to convince a fanboy who refuses to look at simple numbers and thinks "It's the same reason the S65 will always and forever piss all over the S55 inline-6. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite simply an idiot." That right there is a fanboy statement.

  8. #108
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    So my previous comment compared the s65 and s55 in the same car with the same chassis. Anyways, youre comparing lap times of the race versions of each m3 and even then they didnt beat it by much.
    Doesn't change the fact, does it? The cars with less power and torque lapped quicker? That should tell you something.

    Race versions? Yeah are these M cars or what? M stands for what? Menstruation according to you. My logic though tells me it stands (stood) for Motorsport.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Regardless if youre taking a regular m4 compare it to a regular e92 m3 or e46 m3. Once the lightened/more powerful version of the m4 comes out the gts and csl will be beaten what will you say then?
    I'll say everything I just said and maybe by then it will sink in for you.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    And too bad the s65 only makes ~240whp at redline so youre calculations are meaningless, makes me want to laugh in your face right now, again im comparing the s55 and s65 obviously if you can make the same torque at higher rpm you'll make more power but the fact is the s65 doesn't make more that 295 ft lb, even its 8400rpm redline cant make up the power difference between the s55/s65.
    The laughing taking place is from me when you're offering such a poor attempt at a debate. Yes great job understanding how RPM works and how torque not dropping off at a higher redline is a strength. Sorry to burst your bubble but the S65 revs higher with the better curve. That means the same torque at the higher RPM will have more power. Guess what happens when you add forced induction to a motor like that? If you don't get it, you don't get it. Tune the S55 as much as you want it will NEVER CHANGE ANYTHING.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Besides last I checked knowing bore/stroke, torque curve , etc doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what metals are used, how theyre formed or their dimensions.
    Read the bold because this is comedy.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Again you dont have anything to back up your s55 modding limitation assumptions. But I'm not gonna try to convince a fanboy who refuses to look at simple numbers and thinks "It's the same reason the S65 will always and forever piss all over the S55 inline-6. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite simply an idiot." That right there is a fanboy statement.
    I have the entirety of the history of the BMW aftermarket at my disposal to back me up. Turbo direct injected BMW inline-6's are something new? Guess what most of the discussion here is about? Guess what motors still top the direct injected I6's in performance modification and always will? NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

    That right there is called a fact. If you can't process facts that is your problem and I can't help you. There is no debate here because this is absurdly one-sided and that is not my doing, it's BMW's.
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  9. #109
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    5 out of 6 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Let's start a new thread. Sticky your love of your [obsoleted] S65 killed this thread. Click here to enlarge
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    Let's start a new thread. Sticky your love of your [obsoleted] S65 killed this thread. Click here to enlarge
    No, that would be the people who took it off track specifically to try to put the previous gen M3 down. I didn't write anything until some people who don't get it did.

    Wow, 500 whp with a tune so every M motor is now obsolete. Some people seriously are retarded and I'm not going to let idiotic comments like that fly here, period.

    100 points from your account were just killed.
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    TEH BMW Sacks only fur woman ! AMG M156 is weiner

  12. #112
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    Exactly as I predicted. What gets me every time is, Sticky does this over and over and over and over, with many different people, yet what is his response, it wasn't me it was the other guy, was the other guy, was the other guy, was the other guy,was the other. Ok Sticky its always the other guy, you just happen to be involved in everyone of these pointless debates every time, but it has nothing to do with you, we get it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Exactly as I predicted. What gets me every time is, Sticky does this over and over and over and over, with many different people, yet what is his response, it wasn't me it was the other guy, was the other guy, was the other guy, was the other guy,was the other. Ok Sticky its always the other guy, you just happen to be involved in everyone of these pointless debates every time, but it has nothing to do with you, we get it.
    It's my forum not yours and you don't need to worry about it, ok? Worry about wrapping up your Stage 3's, ok? I think everyone would appreciate that a bit more than your needless commentary in this thread.

    Secondly, this IS a forum. Which means you can talk and debate. It is not run like other forums and I don't particularly care to change the aspects of debate here. If you want to make a point go ahead and make it. Be prepared to back it up though with some substance. If you say something absurd expect me comment on it.

    Maybe you should stop constantly whining or crying about discussion? I'll talk about M motors and how they compare for as long as I feel like it. If you don't have anything to contribute to the topic go do something else. Maybe you shouldn't poke and prod with negative comments either?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mpowerct Click here to enlarge
    Not so sure about that. Will it sound better ? No.... Will it ever redline to 8400 Rpm+ ? No... Will it have better throttle response? No. Better Reliability? No. I could go on. Just because it makes more power which is expected on a new model, does not make it a better engine... They are both Great engines but to say it is superior in every way in just being Click here to enlarge The are some Great Turbo engines, but at the end of the day I know the majority of the most coveted/ best engines are NA... Carrera GT V10, Porsche GT3 4.0, Mclaren F1 V12, Lexus LFA V10, BMW S85 V10, S65 V8, S54 Inline 6. Mercedes Benz V8 M156, Ferrari 458 V8 International Engine of the Year!!! Ferrari V12's, All Lambo V10- V12's, Z06 LS7...I could go on and on. I will give you that they get better gas mileageClick here to enlarge
    I didn't see this post earlier. You put it well.
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    4 out of 5 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    100 points from your account were just killed.
    Click here to enlarge Because someone disagrees with you? Is this e90post v2?
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Because someone disagrees with you? Is this e90post v2?
    No it's because you're telling people what you think they should be able to debate regarding M engine topics. Click here to enlarge

    I'll sit here and talk M motors until my fingers fall off if I feel like it and anyone else can if they want to as well, thanks.
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    Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down and beat you with experience.

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    The typical $#@!ery. A bunch of S65 paper racing. Is there an S65 around that can show me its faster than my turbo s54. I'll wait!

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    [QUOTE=sahyoun;581075]Wow that right there is probably one of the most closed minded things I've read.

    Welcome to bimmerboostClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B00stGeek Click here to enlarge
    The typical $#@!ery. A bunch of S65 paper racing. Is there an S65 around that can show me its faster than my turbo s54. I'll wait!
    Oh the S54 guys are taking offense too now. That's fine though, it was already stated the S54 will top the S55. Well, technically, it already does but it will forever for similar aspects stated about other high revving M motors.

    I have no idea where you are located but I'd love to compare. All I know is S65's keep winning roll on events against turbo S54's even though they are supercharged and not turbo.

    Going to be a while before the S55 can even show up.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Oh the S54 guys are taking offense too now. That's fine though, it was already stated the S54 will top the S55. Well, technically, it already does but it will forever for similar aspects stated about other high revving M motors.
    No offense taken at all. I know the truth here.
    I'm not sure which events you're talking about. 1 event maybe. No sweat though. There's a large crowd of turbo S54s around. Don't think theres been an event with all of them there at the same time. So it would be kinda silly to speak about all turbo s54s when only a few were present.

    But all in all, the S54 has won more roll on events. Supercharged S65 at the events I've attended get WALKED. They have their hands full with N54s.

    I'm on the east coast, Tri State Area btw.

  22. #122
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B00stGeek Click here to enlarge
    Don't think theres been an event with all of them there at the same time. So it would be kinda silly to speak about all turbo s54s when only a few were present.
    It's impossible to ever host an event with everyone in attendance but the point made is strong S54's have shown up and been beaten. I believe that shows the S65 which is winning with less power is the more efficient racing platform. Look, the S65 turbo era is getting ready as well. Things are looking bright, aren't they?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B00stGeek Click here to enlarge
    But all in all, the S54 has won more roll on events. Supercharged S65 at the events I've attended get WALKED. They have their hands full with N54s.
    I don't think you have ever attended an event with a built motor supercharged S65 but that's fine. You stated paper racing and you're wrong, the S65 has won in practice not on paper.

    The S54 of course has been on the market longer.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by B00stGeek Click here to enlarge
    I'm on the east coast, Tri State Area btw.
    That's too bad man I'd love to do some runs and turn it into a pretty cool article about S54 vs. S65 and superchargers vs. turbos. That would be a good one.
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    lmao just because sticky stands behind the s65 doesn't mean the debate has to end

    debates are nice you're supposed to keep going and going lol
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    7 out of 8 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    MR STICKY


    1. In regards to lap times. You are comparing apples and oranges. Your comparing a base f80/82 to an e46 m3 csl. The CSL is a lightweight race car with MICHELIN CUP TIRES. Have you seen the tread on those things? Half the interior is carbon fiber. No $#@! it beats the new m3/m4. Nothing to do with motor. Argument invalid.

    2. In regards to your s54 vs s65. You're arguments are based on your ASSUMPTIONS. Fact of the matter is that there isn't an s65 making more power than the s54. As to why that is, all we can do is speculate.

    Your arguments and methods of conveying points are childish at most. Grow up. I used to enjoy reading articles on this website but in the past year or so your commentary has ruined it.

    Yea its your site, so do with it what you will. Just saying you look ridiculous. I could argue about 90% of your arguments if I thought it was worth the time. But in the end, you are the kind of person who will refuse to admit defeat.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's impossible to ever host an event with everyone in attendance but the point made is strong S54's have shown up and been beaten. I believe that shows the S65 which is winning with less power is the more efficient racing platform. Look, the S65 turbo era is getting ready as well. Things are looking bright, aren't they?
    The S54 holds the higher trap speed in the roll on events. Lets not kid anyone, things happen at events all the time. Thats why there are many events to attend. You can't continuously go on about 1 event where other cars had issues. Sorry, but I'm not sold. Then at the following event that you didn't show to, the s54 beat all previous trap records. It takes doing something more than once to get the credit you're looking for. You can say that your car had issues too. Yes, we've heard it a million times. Just show up. Quit trying to speculate.

    The weird part is there are built S54s that don't even come. 1100, 1200whp cars. Saad has a built car as well. Man only if you knew. Maybe if there were some type of sponsored event with a huge cash prize, you might get to see them. But as of now, there aren't any s65 even worth the time of day.

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