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Thread: Knock knock?

  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Jake and I talk from time to time. We're both friendly with Lou formerly of CPE fame. I shot him some ideas a few months ago for boost control via the DME and I know he had a few good ideas of his own as well. At the end of the day the real difference with say the JB4 is the complete flexibility to have it do whatever myself, Jake, or anyone can dream up. If the idea is good I can make it happen and often quickly. Click here to enlarge
    It wasn't really that quick given I've been harping about not having this for only about 3 years now? You've done many things much faster than that lol how accurate do you believe this is? Off the CANBus?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    A major headache on a weekly basis is customers who find some old copy of some obsolete firmware and then try to load it. Then they invariably contact us for help putting humpty dumpty back together again. It's a real time waste for everyone involved. One solution is not to have obsoleted copies of files that won't work floating around in the first place. Click here to enlarge
    I'm not going to get into you controlling your file uploads here which you can do but whatever is comfortable works Terry. My position is as always having the complete availability of all N54 tools and resources at anyone's disposal (and any motor really). I'll probably just upload your files on my own and then update them on my own as the effort doesn't bother me. What bothers me is not having something available for the members that can help them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    It wasn't really that quick given I've been harping about not having this for only about 3 years now? You've done many things much faster than that lol how accurate do you believe this is? Off the CANBus?
    I wouldn't know but I'd probably guess as accurate as cobb... cough cough also off the canbus... :-)

    Click here to enlarge

  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    I wouldn't know but I'd probably guess as accurate as cobb... cough cough also off the canbus... :-)

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    Why does it sound like you do know? loll
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    It wasn't really that quick given I've been harping about not having this for only about 3 years now? You've done many things much faster than that lol how accurate do you believe this is? Off the CANBus?
    I'm talking about tuning logic. Say you want to have the tune go to a low boost map if fuel pressure drops below 1000psi, or if you get more than 6 degrees of knock for more than 3 seconds, or something like that. It's just a few minutes of coding to make that happen with the JB4. You can't do stuff like that flash only. When you start posting more info on how you have your tuning setup I'll chime in with some ideas on how you could use the JB4 in the mix to improve things. On the ST stuff now I doubt you've even seen it. We need to improve the documentation so it's more clear how to set it up but once setup its flawless. Your customer ak335 didn't even try to get it going for whatever reason and instead did a home brew MBC that never worked right. Anything was an upgrade over what he was running. And when you're running a ST setup unless you know about tuning people are going to need tuning help. So hiring a pro tuner to sort out the best boost, air/fuel, and timing curves to use makes sense. We have good base maps posted but when you're dealing with something as far from stock as a single turbo kit some fine tuning by a professional is always a good idea.

    At the end of the day the JB4 is just another tool out there that can be applied to get things done. In instances where you have a way you want to do things that you think are better if the JB4 doesn't already support it often its easier for me to write the logic to do it than try to convince otherwise. Ultimately what makes the JB4 so great is the complete flexibility. As more needs crop up with our customers we'll be floating around coming up with innovative solutions to them.

    On the cyl 2-6 timing and ignition corrections that was really tricky. Like most tricks once you figure it out its simple. The data is as accurate as can be and we've posted the directions to enable it and will continue to post updates so customers can toy around with it and build confidence in the data quality. In learning to do this we learned a few other nifty tricks so suddenly there is a lot more we can do with the N54 that we couldn't do two weeks ago when the mood strikes.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 07-02-2014 at 09:52 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not going to get into you controlling your file uploads here which you can do but whatever is comfortable works Terry. My position is as always having the complete availability of all N54 tools and resources at anyone's disposal (and any motor really). I'll probably just upload your files on my own and then update them on my own as the effort doesn't bother me. What bothers me is not having something available for the members that can help them.
    I hear you. I always try to let BB readers know when important updates are out. Thus this thread. It's just the file management itself that we prefer to keep in house.
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I hear you. I always try to let BB readers know when important updates are out. Thus this thread. It's just the file management itself that we prefer to keep in house.
    I understand Sticky's POV, but FWIW I don't think it's a big deal, anyone with a JB4 already knows your forum has all of the info JB4 related, and I completely see your point in making sure things are updated. Anytime I've downloaded a backend or updated firmware I go to N54tech because I know it will be up to date and if for some reason the thread is old it is stated its old. I totally understand this. @Sticky maybe there is a way to streamline this so that both are updated together? Not sure how all forums work and could work together, but I do get from the users point of view nice to have everything at one place. Not crazy though to go to a manufacturers site for updates on their own product...
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'm talking about tuning logic. Say you want to have the tune go to a low boost map if fuel pressure drops below 1000psi, or if you get more than 6 degrees of knock for more than 3 seconds, or something like that. It's just a few minutes of coding to make that happen with the JB4. You can't do stuff like that flash only. When you start posting more info on how you have your tuning setup I'll chime in with some ideas on how you could use the JB4 in the mix to improve things. On the ST stuff now I doubt you've even seen it. We need to improve the documentation so it's more clear how to set it up but once setup its flawless.
    Failsafes are a great thing for sure but what was severely lacking from the safety perspective is ability to log what you've just added and configurability without having to wait for Terry to realize a feature was worth investing time and money into. With our current recommended setup we also have the ability to control secondary port injection fueling which the JB, currently, doesn't support yet.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Your customer ak335 didn't even try to get it going for whatever reason and instead did a home brew MBC that never worked right. Anything was an upgrade over what he was running.
    Pretty sure he tried the JB as Jake mentioned it to me. Not sure on the details though as Jake was personally involved there with Ak335i's car not me.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    At the end of the day the JB4 is just another tool out there that can be applied to get things done.
    With this feature added it has certainly become an eligible tool at least in my toolbox Click here to enlarge provided it works out well once put through its paces of course. Given what you're saying though it does seem promising.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the cyl 2-6 timing and ignition corrections that was really tricky. Like most tricks once you figure it out its simple. The data is as accurate as can be and we've posted the directions to enable it and will continue to post updates so customers can toy around with it and build confidence in the data quality. In learning to do this we learned a few other nifty tricks so suddenly there is a lot more we can do with the N54 that we couldn't do two weeks ago when the mood strikes.
    Is the information off the CANBus for each individual cylinder? Yes or no will suffice here heh
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'm talking about tuning logic. Say you want to have the tune go to a low boost map if fuel pressure drops below 1000psi, or if you get more than 6 degrees of knock for more than 3 seconds, or something like that. It's just a few minutes of coding to make that happen with the JB4. You can't do stuff like that flash only. When you start posting more info on how you have your tuning setup I'll chime in with some ideas on how you could use the JB4 in the mix to improve things. On the ST stuff now I doubt you've even seen it. We need to improve the documentation so it's more clear how to set it up but once setup its flawless. Your customer ak335 didn't even try to get it going for whatever reason and instead did a home brew MBC that never worked right. Anything was an upgrade over what he was running. And when you're running a ST setup unless you know about tuning people are going to need tuning help. So hiring a pro tuner to sort out the best boost, air/fuel, and timing curves to use makes sense. We have good base maps posted but when you're dealing with something as far from stock as a single turbo kit some fine tuning by a professional is always a good idea.

    At the end of the day the JB4 is just another tool out there that can be applied to get things done. In instances where you have a way you want to do things that you think are better if the JB4 doesn't already support it often its easier for me to write the logic to do it than try to convince otherwise. Ultimately what makes the JB4 so great is the complete flexibility. As more needs crop up with our customers we'll be floating around coming up with innovative solutions to them.

    On the cyl 2-6 timing and ignition corrections that was really tricky. Like most tricks once you figure it out its simple. The data is as accurate as can be and we've posted the directions to enable it and will continue to post updates so customers can toy around with it and build confidence in the data quality. In learning to do this we learned a few other nifty tricks so suddenly there is a lot more we can do with the N54 that we couldn't do two weeks ago when the mood strikes.
    Terry, I don't know how much Ak335i communicated with you, but from what I could tell he was happy with the JB4 and he did end up having it all setup, just took awhile. I think he maxed out the JB4 at 29psi and that was one of the main reasons.

    I guess I'd have this question for you as far as looking into the future for the JB4. Would it be feasible to run say....

    1) PI batch fire injection system
    2) Meth injection
    3) Nitrous (for use to spool down low at the dragstrip)
    4) When will we see boost control above 29psi?

    all together at the same time with the JB4? I know some are running one of these things but not sure if anyone is running it all? Or what the interface settings would look like?

    BTW, I know I haven't messaged you, but try not to bother you too much. Car is running very strong now, had to relocate and re-install lpfp and replace rear o2's. FF is slowly learning its way up and things are looking positive. May try going back to the track again tomorrow night.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Terry, I don't know how much Ak335i communicated with you, but from what I could tell he was happy with the JB4 and he did end up having it all setup, just took awhile. I think he maxed out the JB4 at 29psi and that was one of the main reasons.
    Him and his tuner sort of did their own thing with it. Last I heard he would use a MBC to set some boost level then set a matching map 6 boost target in the JB4 which would hold the throttle open until his MBC dragged boost over that level. Rudimentary setup to say the least. If he ever got a MAC solenoid in there and the JB4 controlling boost I never heard about it. No big deal. ST guys like to go their own way. We document the tools and they can decide what they want to do and how they want to run it.

    On boost you can go as high as you want if you ask but the official cap is still 29psi. We'll probably raise the official cap up to the full 36psi in a few months when our E92 is up to full strength and we can properly test it. Until then to run over 29psi you'd have to email me and beg for the secret setting. Click here to enlarge

    The external output for nitrous still works. You can run any sort of meth kit you want with the JB4. Not looked in to PI but if anyone winds up getting one shouldn't be too hard to sort out.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Failsafes are a great thing for sure but what was severely lacking from the safety perspective is ability to log what you've just added and configurability without having to wait for Terry to realize a feature was worth investing time and money into. With our current recommended setup we also have the ability to control secondary port injection fueling which the JB, currently, doesn't support yet.
    I'm excited we have the new data in the JB4 as now I don't have to continually answer why we don't have it. For tuning big singles it's good data to have. For stock turbos completely pointless. But it's there. Enjoy! Click here to enlarge

    As far as what you are running now, I have no idea what you're running and what it can or can't do. I'm glad to hear its meeting your needs!

    With this feature added it has certainly become an eligible tool at least in my toolbox Click here to enlarge provided it works out well once put through its paces of course. Given what you're saying though it does seem promising.

    Is the information off the CANBus for each individual cylinder? Yes or no will suffice here heh
    Yes of course. All data other than what is connected to physical sensors in the harness comes off the DME via the CANbus.
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    Almost forgot, also added a little cursor window which makes looking at the data a bit easier if you like to use the native JB4 interface.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Burger Motorsports
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    Hey @Terry@BMS

    Any plans to add an additional tab and output/trigger?
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SteveAZ Click here to enlarge
    Hey @Terry@BMS

    Any plans to add an additional tab and output/trigger?
    No plans at the moment, but if some great need comes up, like viable piggyback injector hardware, I'll look in to it.
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    For tuning big singles it's good data to have. For stock turbos completely pointless. But it's there. Enjoy!
    I disagree that its "pointless" for guys on stock turbos. If all you're basing that on is that knock protection in the DME saves motors then ok but that's not right to do tuning wise and everything takes its toll over time. I'd say its great to have at all times stock or big turbo as you can perfect your tuning from all angles and not just move boost up/down and look away.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I disagree that its "pointless" for guys on stock turbos. If all you're basing that on is that knock protection in the DME saves motors then ok but that's not right to do tuning wise and everything takes its toll over time. I'd say its great to have at all times stock or big turbo as you can perfect your tuning from all angles and not just move boost up/down and look away.
    I say that because there is a general misconception within the community that knock corrections themselves should be avoided. It's simply not the case. Knock corrections let you know you have the boost, timing, and AFR very close to optimal. N54s generally produce the highest output and best performance with a few corrections taking place. If you have no corrections at all in any cylinder then the motor is just under advanced in most of the holes. Which is what you might want for something very aggressive like a single turbo that runs double the factory power levels. For OEM turbos I don't think so.

    But again, the XDF flash files and free software is posted, the tools are there now, and people can do whatever they want to do with them. Those who want to take my advice will and those who don't will use those tools to do what they want. And that's just fine by me. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Terry, I think dzenno's point (please correct me if I'm wrong) was more or less that the extra telemetry that the JB4 can now provide is as beneficial to those of us looking to make the most out of our stock-turbo N54s as those running big turbos. I don't think he was knocking (no pun intended) your product.

    From the standpoint of tuning the DME to best suit JB4 boost control, the more logging parameters we can get (did I mention DME load? Click here to enlarge), the better!

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    16 out of 16 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I love how these discussions go, hypothetically speaking:

    Jerry: Did some stuff, check it out.
    Zdenno: "Congrats pal! Really good that you made your inferior product a little better and are catching up to the rest of us!"
    Jerry: "Thanks bud! Yeah, while I was busy doing things with my product that you can only dream of, I tossed this in for those that wanted."
    Zdenno: "Yeah sport, excellent job, it makes your product that inherently does things wrong a little better, good on you brother! "
    Jerry: "Appreciate sincerely my man. Glad you finally figured out enough to recognize a small percentage of what I'm actually doing, keep it up and someday you'll get that high school diploma!"

    etc.


    Note: This is satire. Not actual intent of participants or conversations. It's how I read it though, and it cracks me up. Anyone that says "Terry didn't say that!" or "Dzenno didn't say that!" can either punch themselves in the face or give Sticky a beej. Or both.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EvanL Click here to enlarge
    Terry, I think dzenno's point (please correct me if I'm wrong) was more or less that the extra telemetry that the JB4 can now provide is as beneficial to those of us looking to make the most out of our stock-turbo N54s as those running big turbos. I don't think he was knocking (no pun intended) your product.

    From the standpoint of tuning the DME to best suit JB4 boost control, the more logging parameters we can get (did I mention DME load? Click here to enlarge), the better!
    Often data analysis paralysis is the enemy of optimizing performance. People who are less experienced tend to focus on meaningless things like timing corrections and throttle movement and ignore the big picture things like fuel pressure and MBT.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  20. #95
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    MBT, that's the number you're supposed to find on a dyno then add 3-5 degrees to bcuz racecar right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    MBT, that's the number you're supposed to find on a dyno then add 3-5 degrees to bcuz racecar right?
    lol exactly
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  22. #97
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Often data analysis paralysis is the enemy of optimizing performance. People who are less experienced tend to focus on meaningless things like timing corrections and throttle movement and ignore the big picture things like fuel pressure and MBT.
    Yea so meaningless, I mean who would ever want to monitor knock, just n00bs lol don't ruin it now
    Click here to enlarge

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    Internal combustion is inherently dangerous to engines. Because of the mixture of fuel and gas inherently present, any spark can create an intense pressure spike leading to (at best) mechanical motion, but at worse complete destruction of the entire engine, and possibly loss of control leading to the death of you, your passengers, and quite possibly a school bus full of newborn babies.

    Vishnu performance has used nothing but the most premium sourced components from China (one of the largest manufacturers in the world) for all of our performance pieces to make sure your engine is safe and DOES NOT EVER kill a school bus full of babies. We have cylinder monitoring on all six cylinders in the works and in a few updates, the ability to monitor knock that hasn't even occurred yet. This is possible by monitoring the flow of tachyons with our patented new quantum-string sensors, any disturbance signifies pre detonation before it's occurred, allowing the future firmwares to prevent failure. Don't listen to the naysayers, the physics is 100% correct but if you want to be the cause of death for dozens of innocent babies, by all means do whatever you want.

    Wait what's going on again? I'm not really agreeing with anyone since both are intelligent, competent, respected, my heros etc and both (as always) know what they are talking about. I just felt like selling something too Click here to enlarge

  24. #99
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Internal combustion is inherently dangerous to engines. Because of the mixture of fuel and gas inherently present, any spark can create an intense pressure spike leading to (at best) mechanical motion, but at worse complete destruction of the entire engine, and possibly loss of control leading to the death of you, your passengers, and quite possibly a school bus full of newborn babies.

    Vishnu performance has used nothing but the most premium sourced components from China (one of the largest manufacturers in the world) for all of our performance pieces to make sure your engine is safe and DOES NOT EVER kill a school bus full of babies. We have cylinder monitoring on all six cylinders in the works and in a few updates, the ability to monitor knock that hasn't even occurred yet. This is possible by monitoring the flow of tachyons with our patented new quantum-string sensors, any disturbance signifies pre detonation before it's occurred, allowing the future firmwares to prevent failure. Don't listen to the naysayers, the physics is 100% correct but if you want to be the cause of death for dozens of innocent babies, by all means do whatever you want.

    Wait what's going on again? I'm not really agreeing with anyone since both are intelligent, competent, respected, my heros etc and both (as always) know what they are talking about. I just felt like selling something too Click here to enlarge

    Where can I buy said product?
    E92 Bren Tune / E90 PTF Tune / E91 Stockish and slow AF

    Got Boost?

    Click here to enlarge

  25. #100
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    Loll
    Click here to enlarge

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