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Thread: FFTEC VFF900 kit or the Vargas VTX-R 67 that is the question. (and related issues)

              
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    Question FFTEC VFF900 kit or the Vargas VTX-R 67 that is the question. (and related issues)

    Alright before you read this post I want it to be known I have literally read every thread, post for post, about the FFTEC VFF900 kit and the Vargas VTX-R 67 that I have found. I tried to post all the threads I researched but my Reputation isn't high enough to post links..... These questions and topics are some that I feel have not been thoroughly covered. If I have overlooked a detail or thread forgive me. I have been reading day and night since I decided to pull the trigger on one of these kits so I can make a final spreadsheet on all the parts I need to order. The events im looking to compete in are quarter mile, half mile, whole mile and trap speed roll racing.

    I will slowly update this original post with answered information. Just so much information to research so I wanted to get the ball rolling.

    I have a 2007 335i sedan that I purchased in April 2014. I already have the car at FBO and its just not enough power for me…(I chose this platform for a reason…if I wanted to be like everyone else I would have bought an American muscle car so please don’t tell me I “chose the wrong platform” because at one point in time every 4 digit car has been where we are with our cars)
    Current mods for those who are wondering are
    -JB4 g5 w/meth controller
    -Meth kit
    -DCI
    -VRSF Downpipes, 7” intercooler, Charge Pipe w/tial bov
    -BMS back end flash

    The following questions I’m open to any and every bit of knowledge you want to throw at me. I typed them up on word as I thought of things throughout the day.

    Main Question...

    Single Turbo FFTEC VFF900 kit or the Twin turbo Vargas VTX-R 67 AND WHY?



    FUEL

    1. What is being done for fueling?

    -What are they running?
    -What are they doing with LPFP (255,455, 485, dual?)
    -What are they doing for HPFP
    -Who makes the best HPFP

    1. How much e85 are they running?
    2. Are you running race fuel?
    3. Are you running methanol?

    -what percentage mix of meth and water are you running?
    -how many nozzles, what size and where are they installed?
    5. Are you running separate fuel system for example are you running extra injectors in the charge pipe?

    Drivetrain questions

    1. Do you have manual or automatic transmission?
    2. Did you build your transmission?
    3. Are you running factory axles?
    4. Do you have LSD/ what gears are you running?
    5. Do you have a separate tune that handles your transmission?


    Software

    1. Who tuned the car and what software/system did they use to tune the car and why?



    1. What 3.5 MAP sensor did you choose and why?




    Exhaust

    1. What route did you take for exhaust?
      1. Why did you take this route?
        1. Brand whore or dyno proven?



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    Single Turbo FFTEC VFF900 kit or the Twin turbo Vargas VTX-R 67 AND WHY?

    100% up to you, the vargas setup isn't in production yet so we as a community don't know what its capable of, the FFTEC kit is and you know the results.


    (I am still on stock turbos as I am waiting on the results of PTF, VTT, FastGTI, Proven Power and others before I purchase a kit, so my answers are reflecting that)


    FUEL


    1. What is being done for fueling? A lot, ill link the articles


    LPFP Solution
    HPFP Solution


    1. How much e85 are they running? After the VTT HPFP is released you can run 100%, currently most of us are running 50/50.
    2. Are you running race fuel? No benefits over e85 on the dyno with stock turbo's, with larger turbos I have personally not seen any graphs.
    3. Are you running methanol? Yes, 60/40 - Meth/Water


    -how many nozzles, what size and where are they installed? Dual 1.0 mm
    5. Are you running separate fuel system for example are you running extra injectors in the charge pipe? Not currently

    Drivetrain questions


    1. Do you have manual or automatic transmission? AT, But Im in the process of buying a MT car for the build.
    2. Did you build your transmission? No, The only option currently is Level 10, Members are currently working on AT Solutions.
    3. Are you running factory axles? DSS Are what you will want
    4. Do you have a separate tune that handles your transmission? You can use the alpina flash for the transmission, If you have an early 07' build it might not be applicable.


    Software


    1. Who tuned the car and what software/system did they use to tune the car and why? I run Cobb, Most of the big turbo guys are running a piggyback (JB4, Proceede) with a flash backend (Cobb or Bimmerboost Flash).



    1. What 3.5 MAP sensor did you choose and why? Cant answer.


    Exhaust


    1. What route did you take for exhaust? Stock
      1. Why did you take this route? Because the exhaust doesn't make enough power to justify the price.
        1. Brand whore or dyno proven? There is no dyno proven exhaust, 5-15whp max, on a bigger turbo this will obviously change.





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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by j_hynson Click here to enlarge
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    I will slowly update this original post with answered information.
    No you won't.

    Hi Jason!
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

    2007 e92 Mont. Blue 335i | 6MT | COBB Tuned | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Helix FMIC | AA DPs | HKS Exhaust | DCI | Stett CP w/ Forged DVs | KWv2 Coilovers | UUC Sway Bars & SSK | HPF Stg 2 Clutch | HFS-4 | M3 Suspension Bits | DEFIVfab Diff Lockdown Kit | Stoptech Trophy BBK

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    You will find as much or more info in the custom turbo kit threads. There are 2 of us one off single turbo guys in the 700s now

    Also PTF will be releasing kits and fueling soon as well
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
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    You should really just wait and see how all of the ST kits shake out this year. My reasoning below:

    The HPFP shotgun kits from VTT will not be ready for at least 3-4 months if not longer, that puts you at the Fall(Octoberish) in terms of when fueling will be fixed. Unless you want to go the PTF route with port fuel injection which has not been officially released and I think might just be canned but who knows if/when it will be available.

    By the fall the ST kits should all be out from all of the above mentioned companies with pricing, features, dynos, etc. That means, depending on where you live in the country, a few months of fun/shake out time before winter hits.

    My suggestion is to wait until the spring to see how everything has shaken out, at least that is my plan.
    E92 Bren Tune
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
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    You should really just wait and see how all of the ST kits shake out this year. My reasoning below:

    The HPFP shotgun kits from VTT will not be ready for at least 3-4 months if not longer, that puts you at the Fall(Octoberish) in terms of when fueling will be fixed. Unless you want to go the PTF route with port fuel injection which has not been officially released and I think might just be canned but who knows if/when it will be available.

    By the fall the ST kits should all be out from all of the above mentioned companies with pricing, features, dynos, etc. That means, depending on where you live in the country, a few months of fun/shake out time before winter hits.

    My suggestion is to wait until the spring to see how everything has shaken out, at least that is my plan.
    This is good advice a LOT is changing right now. And these builds aren't really something you start over with once you've started.

    Here is what I'm waiting for:

    1) Gintani DCT Solution
    2) Vargas Dual Shotgun
    3) VTT Big Twin data/results/slips/dynos
    4) Really good deal on M3 and Gintani Turbo Kit

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    fftec >

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamia2super Click here to enlarge
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    fftec >
    Currently you can say that as it is the only full kit that has been 'throughly' tested.

    However by the end of the year I have a feeling that will not be the case anymore with 4-5 other options out there.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    4) Really good deal on M3 and Gintani Turbo Kit
    Hmm 20k turbo kit, 5-8k engine build(or alot more if you want it stroked out), whatever a built DCT costs...The 'issue' if you want to call it that with the TT kit is you have to have a built DCT to handle all of the extra tq. But you have to be looking at what like 30-40k investment on a 30-50k car? In before Stick says if you can't pay to play gtfo. Don't get me wrong I bet it will be an absolute BEAST of a car, just expensive.
    Last edited by Torgus; 06-19-2014 at 12:47 PM.
    E92 Bren Tune
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    My car > fftec lulz
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
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    My car > fftec lulz
    Dan spks teh truf.

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    It all depends on your goals, how long you want to wait. If you want something now your only real options are FFTEC and FFTEC look alikes. You know how they perform, and you can be had in the shortest amount of time, then you have proven power which will build you a kit, prob take 4-5 months. Our kits will be done ion the near future, they will be a very unique offering, and offer what no other kit does, true upgraded twins with a curve that is going to be different than any single out there, you also have PTF kits coming soon, which I know for a fact are going to blow every other single out of the water hands down. So it boils down to, how long do you want to wait, do you want to be different, and what kind of curve you are looking for. The amount of money you spend is going to be so close once you are spending it that that shouldn't factor into your decision. Not sure if that helps...Click here to enlarge
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 560WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    It all depends on your goals, how long you want to wait. If you want something now your only real options are FFTEC and FFTEC look alikes. You know how they perform, and you can be had in the shortest amount of time, then you have proven power which will build you a kit, prob take 4-5 months. Our kits will be done ion the near future, they will be a very unique offering, and offer what no other kit does, true upgraded twins with a curve that is going to be different than any single out there, you also have PTF kits coming soon, which I know for a fact are going to blow every other single out of the water hands down. So it boils down to, how long do you want to wait, do you want to be different, and what kind of curve you are looking for. The amount of money you spend is going to be so close once you are spending it that that shouldn't factor into your decision. Not sure if that helps...Click here to enlarge
    Will the curves on the Stage 3 twins be better for getting out of the hole when on dragstrip duty?

    Primarily the reason why I wanted twins instead of big single.
    Titanium Silver E92 09 BMW 335i xdrive 6AT
    KW V3 coilovers, AMS FMIC, AR Catless DP, Walbro 455 LPFP, BMS DCI, Alpina B3 Trans Flash, Vargas HPFP and Rail
    Protuned via Cobb by JR TUNED @ PandL Motorsports
    75%E85/25%93 blend 430awhp/470lbs tq on AWD Dynojet
    Dyno Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE6Ed...ature=youtu.be



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DQE92 Click here to enlarge
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    Will the curves on the Stage 3 twins be better for getting out of the hole when on dragstrip duty?

    Primarily the reason why I wanted twins instead of big single.
    I can't speak for Tony but in theory and just looking at the specs of what you'd be running with the STG3 twins, it almost certainly has to be "yes". Likely by a strong margin as well.

    Getting those big singles moving from a dig is not easy.
    E88 N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Motiv HTA 3586r Tial .82AR/Motiv Port Fuel/Meisterschaft Race/Berk Resonated/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/ST Coilovers/M3 FCA + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/AA Strutbrace/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
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    Getting those big singles moving from a dig is not easy.
    That is what a small shot off the line is for Click here to enlarge. I would assume the VTT will be better off the line vs. a ST without a helper shot.
    E92 Bren Tune
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    But once you start spraying you might as well spray the whole way. You also don't get to claim any no N2O records. But if people can fill with E85/Alcohol they would likely be able to make the effort to fill up and run nitrous. Personally, I have absolutely nothing against nitrous. Its the purists out there.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    It all depends on your goals, how long you want to wait. If you want something now your only real options are FFTEC and FFTEC look alikes. You know how they perform, and you can be had in the shortest amount of time, then you have proven power which will build you a kit, prob take 4-5 months. Our kits will be done ion the near future, they will be a very unique offering, and offer what no other kit does, true upgraded twins with a curve that is going to be different than any single out there, you also have PTF kits coming soon, which I know for a fact are going to blow every other single out of the water hands down. So it boils down to, how long do you want to wait, do you want to be different, and what kind of curve you are looking for. The amount of money you spend is going to be so close once you are spending it that that shouldn't factor into your decision. Not sure if that helps...Click here to enlarge
    I don't want to step on any other vendors toes, but I would really like to see what PTF brings to the table. You and others are stating it like they have defied the laws of physics.

    Tony, I was looking at your curve dyno and our curve dyno. They are very, very similar from torque to power vs rpm. Obviously you're making more power up top due to more PSI. Our single turbo kit is the only one on the market that makes 300wtq under 3k rpm, and has a pretty nice linear curve.

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    you guys should not get too hung up on a little difference in spool here in there. Most races will be from a roll thats just reality and with a lil brake boost you will never fall anywhere close to out of the power band even on the "laggier" setups

    ijs pls
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
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    I don't want to step on any other vendors toes, but I would really like to see what PTF brings to the table. You and others are stating it like they have defied the laws of physics.

    Tony, I was looking at your curve dyno and our curve dyno. They are very, very similar from torque to power vs rpm. Obviously you're making more power up top due to more PSI. Our single turbo kit is the only one on the market that makes 300wtq under 3k rpm, and has a pretty nice linear curve.
    Not to step on anyones toes either, but to me it looks like you guys basically made an FFTEC kit with a couple tweaks. Your spool is ok, not great, the FFTEC kit on Terrys car makes 300WTQ around 2800 too, the spool on that prototype Stage 3 kit was actually not very good, we are going to be able to pick up quite a bit of spool with the new design. From what I have seen and heard the PTF kit is on another level spool wise, it has nothing to do with defying the laws of physics and everything to do with starting from square one when designing the kit and doing so in a manner no one, not even us has come close to. When they release the info I think everyone will be surprised at how much due diligence they did when building their kits. We feel very lucky to have been able to work so closely with them from just starting on the platform, without Dzenno, and Jakes help we would have no accomplished near as much as we have. This is why we speak so highly of them, not because we are biased. Please do not take offense to any of this, this is just an open discussion
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 560WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
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    you guys should not get too hung up on a little difference in spool here in there. Most races will be from a roll thats just reality and with a lil brake boost you will never fall anywhere close to out of the power band even on the "laggier" setups

    ijs pls
    This is true, but how much time is spent racing compared to just driving your car on the road and enjoying it, quick spool can make the difference between a car that is fun to drive when not racing and one that isn't. But right everything on the market is so close in spool, there is no difference, you will not be able to feel 100+- difference in spool
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 560WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
    N54 Stock Frame (100% E85) World Record: 645WHP / 654WTQ
    N54 (ACN 91 octane only) World Record, Stock Motor: 573WHP / 537WTQ
    Website - Email


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    From my automatic trans perspective spool is everything and the FFTEC 5862 top mount delivers. We've got the 6466 in our E92 and it's so much less fun to drive even when we were running it at 26psi. The power is very on and off and it's hard to control as the spool up is so abrupt. A few hundred RPM worth of spool makes all the difference. Especially when racing from a set of cones at the runway or from a stop. When people ask my opinion I always suggest going down in turbo size if your goals allow it.

    For fueling there are few good options. The Vargas high pressure pump with a home modified low pressure setup (inline or replacement) is what you'll need. With that you probably won't need meth or at least not much of it and instead will run mostly E85. We're all sort of waiting around for that kit to come out to take things to the next level.

    Anyway, all things considered, the way I have our 135i setup is the perfect setup for my needs but may not meet yours. It puts out a solid 600whp and can go up to 650whp when I'm ready for it. Great response off the throttle down to 3000rpm, 5.9s 60-130 at the 600rw level (will get quicker), super quiet with its factory exhaust, and very clean looking. The only drawback is I need to rely on meth for fueling right now. The VT setup should fix that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    Not to step on anyones toes either, but to me it looks like you guys basically made an FFTEC kit with a couple tweaks. Your spool is ok, not great, the FFTEC kit on Terrys car makes 300WTQ around 2800 too, the spool on that prototype Stage 3 kit was actually not very good, we are going to be able to pick up quite a bit of spool with the new design. From what I have seen and heard the PTF kit is on another level spool wise, it has nothing to do with defying the laws of physics and everything to do with starting from square one when designing the kit and doing so in a manner no one, not even us has come close to. When they release the info I think everyone will be surprised at how much due diligence they did when building their kits. We feel very lucky to have been able to work so closely with them from just starting on the platform, without Dzenno, and Jakes help we would have no accomplished near as much as we have. This is why we speak so highly of them, not because we are biased. Please do not take offense to any of this, this is just an open discussion
    No offense taken at all Tony. I appreciate all of your inputs as well as others. We are new to this N54 scene but not for making power.

    Our kit may look alike FFTEC, but in all reality is very different. There is only so much one can do with the limited space available for a top mount kit. Our manifold design is completely different in all ways, from a 2 piece design to runner length and merge collectors. We keep velocity up to shorten "lag" and have best response.

    You are very correct about Terry's 5862 making as much Tq down low as us. There a few things you have to remember, his turbo is much, much smaller than ours. Comparing a 6465 with a same spool/WTQ as a 5862 with smaller exhaust housing as well, just makes our kit look that much better.

    I have no doubt that what PTF brings out to the table will be nothing less than spectacular as you state. Nothing in these comparisons are apples to apples. Bottom line is that with whoevers kit you want to go with, FFTEC, Vargas, Ours. You will make the power you want with insurance from all vendors to stand by their work. I know I will, and I know you have too Tony.

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    @Ak335i go buy a manual transmission please. Thanks. You drive it like it is a manual anyway.
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    This is true, but how much time is spent racing compared to just driving your car on the road and enjoying it, quick spool can make the difference between a car that is fun to drive when not racing and one that isn't. But right everything on the market is so close in spool, there is no difference, you will not be able to feel 100+- difference in spool
    you are right, sometimes i forget im biased because i literally only drive the car to go out to race or rape the hwy lol... if i didnt work out of town and drove it to and from work daily i would get annoyed..

    another point though is you find that once you are in the 600/700 plus whp range, the roads become small. the world becomes small and you wont have much fun racing unless you go looking for races.. When my car was stock turbo FBO i could come across cars to mess with on random encounters, now its pointless lol. so yea if its a str8 up daily, spool is important i agree 100%

    for my situation not so big a deal
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
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    @Ak335i go buy a manual transmission please. Thanks. You drive it like it is a manual anyway.
    yep, i think thats whats happening Click here to enlarge at least i know it will work.
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    We've got the 6466 in our E92 and it's so much less fun to drive even when we were running it at 26psi. The power is very on and off and it's hard to control as the spool up is so abrupt.
    that turbo really wakes up around 30psi plus. pls turn up the bewst lol.. I know what you are saying its like hmm wait.. oh $#@! hold on LOL.. i personally like it though, but like i said my sits in a garage for 2 weeks while im away for work, then goes out to either rape the hwy or to the rolll races so its a perfect set up for my style
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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