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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    how is it steep?

    these are steep:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...e180/dyno2.jpg

    http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51...3/0e0c999f.jpg

    this is the closest i could find to a 3.0 motor making similar torque:

    http://i16.tinypic.com/2lc5vyf.jpg

    that N54 dyno up there is amazingly smooth for that much power on a relatively small motor with a relatively large turbo... 100-150 ft-lb per 500rpm is manageable.. 'normally' you'd see more like 200+ ft-lb per 500 rpm on a 700hp+ car... heck, just compare it to the OEM turbo N54's, they taper MUCH harder, and torque comes on more like 500+ ft-lb in a 500rpm window lol

    also, it (not that i can prove it) probably wouldn't fall off as hard if they weren't tapering to try not annihilate the transmission?
    I don't know why you didn't embed your pics but you will also notice the scaling is different in your examples.

    I'm not saying the power doesn't come on smoothly but it does come on hard and the HP curve is steep. The torque also falls off. These are not negatives as much as realities of going to a larger single turbo on a 3.0 liter motor.

    I think with additional development (such as headwork, raised compression, etc.) we will see these curves change but by the very nature of turbocharging a 3.0 liter inline-6 you will have to balance aspects of doing so when seeking certain levels.

    I'm not comparing it to anything beyond what it is. So when we look at the revs here we all should understand there is nothing to be gained by revving this current setup out further.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know why you didn't embed your pics but you will also notice the scaling is different in your examples.

    I'm not saying the power doesn't come on smoothly but it does come on hard and the HP curve is steep. The torque also falls off. These are not negatives as much as realities of going to a larger single turbo on a 3.0 liter motor.

    I think with additional development (such as headwork, raised compression, etc.) we will see these curves change but by the very nature of turbocharging a 3.0 liter inline-6 you will have to balance aspects of doing so when seeking certain levels.

    I'm not comparing it to anything beyond what it is. So when we look at the revs here we all should understand there is nothing to be gained by revving this current setup out further.
    Really? Looks to me like if transmission would hold it together it would definitely see more power no?
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    Click here to enlarge

  3. #103
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    Lol. It's all about boost curves. If I wasn't already slipping the trans I could taper boost up and make plenty more up top. But with a stock auto I'm already beyond what it is capable of. Lol

    Pls relax
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Really? Looks to me like if transmission would hold it together it would definitely see more power no?
    That's why the manuals have the peak HP advantage right now.

    We'll see how the curve changes as the AT's can be revved out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Lol. It's all about boost curves. If I wasn't already slipping the trans I could taper boost up and make plenty more up top. But with a stock auto I'm already beyond what it is capable of. Lol

    Pls relax
    It's all good nobody is saying you can't make more power. But you will be moving the same curve somewhat.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know why you didn't embed your pics but you will also notice the scaling is different in your examples.

    I'm not saying the power doesn't come on smoothly but it does come on hard and the HP curve is steep. The torque also falls off. These are not negatives as much as realities of going to a larger single turbo on a 3.0 liter motor.

    I think with additional development (such as headwork, raised compression, etc.) we will see these curves change but by the very nature of turbocharging a 3.0 liter inline-6 you will have to balance aspects of doing so when seeking certain levels.

    I'm not comparing it to anything beyond what it is. So when we look at the revs here we all should understand there is nothing to be gained by revving this current setup out further.
    because i'm lazy

    yes the scaling is different.. but if you look at a 500rpm block and check what teh torque values are every 500rpm, it's much MUCH steeper.

    I don't know how you think it comes on hard, it's smoother than most 3.0 big turbo motors, and smoother than stock turbo... that's all that really matters - commenting on negatives that can't be fixed is pointless... and i'm pretty sure torque falls off IN THIS CASE as a part of tuning, rather than the hardware/physics here.

    i agree there's going to be a balance, as with anything, but the motor is showing it's a pretty decent platform - even if it can ONLY make 700-800whp, it's a very good platform for that power level overall.

    i don't think raising compression is ncessarily the next step other than for those that are plenty happy at 700-800.. there COULD be more power on the table safely, or not at all, who knows!.. unless as above the motor breaks much above where we are now, in which case would provide loads better spool and an even better curve when fed E85 for the same power level. 11:1< N54 750whp would be nice to see?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not comparing it to anything beyond what it is. So when we look at the revs here we all should understand there is nothing to be gained by revving this current setup out further.
    yeah only because of the slipping 6AT though.. could be more boost up top if it was a 6MT... there's nothing about the motor or turbo stopping it form making more as far as we currently know.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    I don't know how you think it comes on hard, it's smoother than most 3.0 big turbo motors, and smoother than stock turbo... that's all that really matters - commenting on negatives that can't be fixed is pointless... and i'm pretty sure torque falls off IN THIS CASE as a part of tuning, rather than the hardware/physics here.
    I'm not saying it's straight up or Supra 88mm status but as the Dynojet is not a load bearing dyno you will see a torque rush once it spools on the street which isn't a bad thing. It isn't going to offer smoother delivery than a stock turbo as that really isn't possible with a massive torque increase, right?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    i don't think raising compression is a good idea at all though.. unless as above the motor breaks much above where we are now, in which case would provide loads better spool and an even better curve when fed E85 for the same power level
    It depends on application. Let's say you really do care about that smooth delivery. Raising the compression will give you more off boost and spool faster so you should in theory make more per psi of boost and not require as much to hit the same peak hp.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    yeah only because of the slipping 6AT though.. could be more boost up top if it was a 6MT... there's nothing about the motor or turbo stopping it form making more as far as we currently know.
    The turbo isn't maxed but let's assume the tuning changes and he wants more boost there still will be a drop off but that's by the very nature again.

    As it sits, revving more won't do anything.

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    Vibes. Lol. I'm happy with it and there's quite a bit of room to go with a tranny that holds.

    It drops off Bcuz I dropped a lil boost up top to play it safe since I was already slipping in the streets.
    I have dynod this setup so many times that I know how to manipulate curves. It's simple. All I wanted to see was hp at peak boost b4 I let it drop so I could see potential and not be completely reckless while doing it on this tranny. The tranny still acted up. But I saw what I wanted to see.. 700whp by 5750 rpms.. pls. Lmao.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not saying it's straight up or Supra 88mm status but as the Dynojet is not a load bearing dyno you will see a torque rush once it spools on the street which isn't a bad thing. It isn't going to offer smoother delivery than a stock turbo as that really isn't possible with a massive torque increase, right?
    Hence I’m trying to compare dynojet to dynojet and same displacement AND turbo size… the N54 comes up trumps in each case i can find.. It's a much more modern DI motor, so it should.

    Have you even seen the torque curve on a stock turbo setup sticky? That’s just completely untrue to say the torque delivery isn’t smoother LOL – just go look at any of the big power RB/VTT2 dynos and compare the torque delta over however many RPM to this graph.

    It comes on to similar or LOWER values many many hundreds of RPM further spread out.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It depends on application. Let's say you really do care about that smooth delivery. Raising the compression will give you more off boost and spool faster so you should in theory make more per psi of boost and not require as much to hit the same peak hp.
    Indeed, but you’ll make less peak power because you can’t run as much boost/timing. Unless you have spare octane on the table of course.

    All a tradeoff – run as much compression as you can for the power you want to make. The higher comp car on an otherwise identical setup will be smoother and quicker/faster with more under the curve, you're right.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The turbo isn't maxed but let's assume the tuning changes and he wants more boost there still will be a drop off but that's by the very nature again.

    As it sits, revving more won't do anything.
    No, that’s not necessarily how turbos work… if properly sized, you can hold torque flat to redline.. Many dynos showing that.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Have you even seen the torque curve on a stock turbo setup sticky? That’s just stupid to say the torque delivery isn’t smoother LOL – just go look at any of the big power RB/VTT2 dynos and compare the torque delta over however many RPM to this graph.
    I'm not sure how you're calculating smoothness but it just doesn't make sense to me what you're saying. A large variange in torque by default is not 'smooth' application. It's the nature of dealing with turbo torque anyway.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    All a tradeoff – run as much compression as you can for the power you want to make.
    Right, or your target fuel.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    No, that’s not necessarily how turbos work… if properly sized, you can hold torque flat to redline.. Many dynos showing that.
    Nobody is arguing you can't have a turbo hold torque to redline but we are speaking in the context of the N54 and the head/cams are a factor here. These things will need to be addressed as well if your goal is a perfectly flat curve which I don't think for many here it is.

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    It's easy to hold tq to ready ramp up boost the whole way.

    Not easy when u have a trans that's already on the way out lol
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I agree its a decently steep curve he goes from 300WHP at about 4250RPM to 700WHP at 5750, that's 400WHP in 1500RPM, that is going to smack you across the face. I honestly think the curve looks pretty good. If you want to do a comparison set up to set up, here is our last stage 3 run. Our curve looks more like a SC curve than a turbo curve and with the new kit I think it is going to be a much different curve. As you can see we hit 300WHP around 3750RPM 500 RPM earlier and do not hit 700WHP til about 6000RPM 250RPM later, stretches it out a little more over 2250RPM, prob a little easier on parts but honestly a quick ramp up and straight line to redline is the ideal curve for just about any set-up.

    Attachment 29848

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not sure how you're calculating smoothness but it just doesn't make sense to me what you're saying. A large variange in torque by default is not 'smooth' application. It's the nature of dealing with turbo torque anyway.
    It’s simple. Just do the following:
    Go to a high power stock frame dyno, compare the delta torque between 500rpm, get the highest 500rpm window preferably.

    Come back to this graph, compare.

    The one that has a SMALLER delta is smoother. Easier to maintain traction on.. heck, gentler on the driveline.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...nderhead-1.jpg

    2000RPM looks like it should be 150 ft-lb, 2500 is 300 ft-lb, 3000rpm is 440 ft-lb, 3500 has already dropped off. Similar to the recent VTT ‘shotgun’ peak power graph so that’s almost 300 ft-lb in 1000rpm

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...gjalonsi-1.jpg

    ^ the single turbo graph from a page ago

    Looks like 4000rpm has 275~ ft-lb, 4500 has 375, 5000 has 500, 5500 has ~639.

    364 ft-lb over 1500rpm or 242 average per 1000rpm over a relevant area. 242 vs 300.. or if you want the highest 1000 on the single.. 264 ft-lb per 1000rpm from 4500 to 5500. There you go. that's what i mean by smoother.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Right, or your target fuel.

    Well.. if you’re going low octane, low compression is better, high octane, can go higher compression… for a given power level you want.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Nobody is arguing you can't have a turbo hold torque to redline but we are speaking in the context of the N54 and the head/cams are a factor here. These things will need to be addressed as well if your goal is a perfectly flat curve which I don't think for many here it is.
    Yes, and speaking in the context of the N54, just like AK335i is saying.. it can hold at least *BETTER* to redline than shown in this graph without the transmission slipping

    If you think it’s ridiculous to say that without proof, fair enough… but it’s just as ridiculous to assume it’s not true with no one having been able to try.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I agree its a decently steep curve he goes from 300WHP at about 4250RPM to 700WHP at 5750, that's 400WHP in 1500RPM, that is going to smack you across the face. I honestly think the curve looks pretty good. If you want to do a comparison set up to set up, here is our last stage 3 run. Our curve looks more like a SC curve than a turbo curve and with the new kit I think it is going to be a much different curve. As you can see we hit 300WHP around 3750RPM 500 RPM earlier and do not hit 700WHP til about 6000RPM 250RPM later, stretches it out a little more over 2250RPM, prob a little easier on parts but honestly a quick ramp up and straight line to redline is the ideal curve for just about any set-up.

    Attachment 29848
    can you change that to RPM at all? hard to compare when it's got different scaling and based off speed :/
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge
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    I just copied the wrong one, we had them both posted to show a 4th gear pull. Sticky if these aren't showing up can you fix them. I was trying to pull them from an old post and it wasn't working

    Attachment 29849

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I just copied the wrong one, we had them both posted to show a 4th gear pull. Sticky if these aren't showing up can you fix them. I was trying to pull them from an old post and it wasn't working

    Attachment 29849
    damn you're not kidding about how smooth that torque curve is!

    4000 rpm 425
    4500 rpm 500
    5000 rpm 550
    5500 rpm 600

    175 ft-lb over 1500 rpm, 4000-5000 even at most is only 125ft-lb per 1000rpm

    i didn't think i could be more jealous of you guys being able to fit twins.. but here we are.

    what's the peak flow like on 2 2867's though (or was this dyno 2863? not that it would matter toooo much...).. 47LB/min each so 94 vs.. 93 for the 6766? shiiiit... so similar flow potential, significantly better spool? that's just not fair lol

    OTOH.. 6766 aren't renowned for being amazing spooling turbos are they just power per dollar? would there be other offerings (HTA, GTX, EFR, whatever) of similar flow ability with better spool? that could possibly come somewhat closer to the twins?

    while the 6766 is still better than stockers for gentler torque curve, those twins are on a whole 'nother level again.

    manifold design would also have something to do with it, likely in favour of the twins? what sort of runner length/diameter is on the 6766 manifold.. downpipe diameter similar? if the 6766 is 3", it would see gains in spool+power from 3.5" and slightly more from 4".. where the twins are twin 3" right?
    Last edited by Flinchy; 06-18-2014 at 08:36 PM.
    boop

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    Things are getting weird. I'm outta here lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Things are getting weird. I'm outta here lol
    my bad lol

    congrats again though!
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Things are getting weird. I'm outta here lol
    Not weird at all man. Your car is a beast, all that TQ on a slipping tranny get out of here, we never even logged one race on the stage 3 car, just $#@!loads of testing, you race yours all the time, I simply wanted to show a really shallow curve as people were discussing shallow and steep curves and show two graphs from two different set ups heads on. I apologize if you felt like I was stepping on toes

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    my bad lol

    congrats again though!

    Hahah. It's all good. It's a 6466 though. And this was never meant to show a great curve it was a yolo dyno on a dynojet to see what was happening and raise the auto trans bar again lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    damn you're not kidding about how smooth that torque curve is!

    4000 rpm 425
    4500 rpm 500
    5000 rpm 550
    5500 rpm 600

    175 ft-lb over 1500 rpm, 4000-5000 even at most is only 125ft-lb per 1000rpm

    i didn't think i could be more jealous of you guys being able to fit twins.. but here we are.

    what's the peak flow like on 2 2867's though (or was this dyno 2863? not that it would matter toooo much...).. 47LB/min each so 94 vs.. 93 for the 6766? shiiiit... so similar flow potential, significantly better spool? that's just not fair lol

    OTOH.. 6766 aren't renowned for being amazing spooling turbos are they just power per dollar? would there be other offerings (HTA, GTX, EFR, whatever) of similar flow ability with better spool? that could possibly come somewhat closer to the twins?

    while the 6766 is still better than stockers for gentler torque curve, those twins are on a whole 'nother level again.

    manifold design would also have something to do with it, likely in favour of the twins? what sort of runner length/diameter is on the 6766 manifold.. downpipe diameter similar? if the 6766 is 3", it would see gains in spool+power from 3.5" and slightly more from 4".. where the twins are twin 3" right?
    You will see an HTA curve soon Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Hahah. It's all good. It's a 6466 though. And this was never meant to show a great curve it was a yolo dyno on a dynojet to see what was happening and raise the auto trans bar again lol
    I know exactly what it was for Click here to enlarge I guess I will never have a 6AT WR...not even for a second...Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Not weird at all man. Your car is a beast, all that TQ on a slipping tranny get out of here, we never even logged one race on the stage 3 car, just $#@!loads of testing, you race yours all the time, I simply wanted to show a really shallow curve as people were discussing shallow and steep curves and show two graphs from two different set ups heads on. I apologize if you felt like I was stepping on toes
    Nah man I repped ya lol.

    I'm just having laugh Click here to enlarge and thanks. I put this car thru hell haha. It's silly how it keeps going lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I know exactly what it was for Click here to enlarge I guess I will never have a 6AT WR...not even for a second...Click here to enlarge
    Well ill leave it at 711 for a while. You have time to shine monica <3
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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