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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    This guy here lol.
    Anyone who thinks the hard part rpm potential of this engine is limited by the valvetrain is seriously misguided. You could probably turn 9k without even touching the valvetrain other then springs, and 10 with some titanium/lightweight bits. The bottom end is where RPMs become expensive.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    Anyone who thinks the hard part rpm potential of this engine is limited by the valvetrain is seriously misguided. You could probably turn 9k without even touching the valvetrain other then springs, and 10 with some titanium/lightweight bits. The bottom end is where RPMs become expensive.
    But top end rpm isn't an issue on this platform?

    So far no one has offered upgraded springs and will confirm the head can rev out past 7200rpms. I agree only springs would likely be needed to reach 9k. Given how robust the bottom end is it would be interesting to figure out when it needs to be built.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    But top end rpm isn't an issue on this platform?

    So far no one has offered upgraded springs and will confirm the head can rev out past 7200rpms. I agree only springs would likely be needed to reach 9k. Given how robust the bottom end is it would be interesting to figure out when it needs to be built.
    What are you talking about 'no has has offered springs'. You can pick up the phone and call ferrea or PAC (or any other major spring MFR) with the size you need and get no less then 10-20 springs that will fit. It's not rocket science to measure ID/OD and installed height.
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  4. #29
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    5 minutes of work turned up


    • Outer Spring O.D.: 28.00mm
    • Outer Spring I.D.: 20.00mm
    • Seat: 62 @ 39.5 (lbs@mm)
    • Open (lift): 168 @ 11 (lbs@mm)
    • Max net lift: 16.00mm
    • Coil bind: 23.70mm


    For the stock stuff. If I get out my PAC master catalog will you feel better? hell, supertech has sold shelf sets of upgrade springs for probably 5-6 years for this platform.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
    LSXOCET - 550hp LS3 @ 1600 lbs curb weight... being built
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    What are you talking about 'no has has offered springs'. You can pick up the phone and call ferrea or PAC (or any other major spring MFR) with the size you need and get no less then 10-20 springs that will fit. It's not rocket science to measure ID/OD and installed height.
    So I should buy springs and just hope they allow me to rev out to 9k? I am well aware aftermarket springs are made for our head. I am sure other springs would fit.

    The fact VAC upgraded their springs in their 4k head and made no effort to rev the engine out makes me wonder. Same with Dzenno.

    AFAIK no one has successfully rev'd and N54 past 7200. Whats his face with the ST did but the stock springs broke above 8k unless I am mistaken.
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  6. #31
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    I don't understand what you're getting at. There is a huge difference between

    "The parts arent available/no one offers them"

    and

    "I want to buy a copy of someone else's setup"

    Clearly, you want option #2 . I'm just saying the parts exist. Valvetrain work isn't rocket science. Add spring pressure to control the valves. Lighten the valve, and you need less spring pressure. Increase boost, you need more spring pressure.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    I don't understand what you're getting at. There is a huge difference between

    "The parts arent available/no one offers them"

    and

    "I want to buy a copy of someone else's setup"

    Clearly, you want option #2 . I'm just saying the parts exist.
    Ok so parts are available that are untested and have no guarantees what they can safely rev out to, not even a guarantee to 8k. No thanks.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Ok so parts are available that are untested and have no guarantees what they can safely rev out to, not even a guarantee to 8k. No thanks.
    You can't guarantee a part to X rpm in reality, because it wont turn X rpm in two different setups. It just doesnt work that way. Valve springs are like the smallest piece of the cheese when it comes to turning rpms and putting a turbo that will breathe that high on a car, it blows my mind that somebody would even fuss over it.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
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  9. #34
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    Also for the record, the M,S,and N motors will (mostly) all interchange springs.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
    LSXOCET - 550hp LS3 @ 1600 lbs curb weight... being built
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    You can't guarantee a part to X rpm in reality, because it wont turn X rpm in two different setups. It just doesnt work that way. Valve springs are like the smallest piece of the cheese when it comes to turning rpms and putting a turbo that will breathe that high on a car, it blows my mind that somebody would even fuss over it.
    Yeah, so you are confident all of the after market springs made for our car will be able to handle 9 or 10k right? If not how can you quantify if a spring will be able to handle the high revs. Can you let me know what springs on the market can handle high revs in an N54? You seem to know so much about springs but keep claiming you can't guarantee anything. Can you guarantee they can handle 7200 rpms which is stock? If so how?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    So I should buy springs and just hope they allow me to rev out to 9k? I am well aware aftermarket springs are made for our head. I am sure other springs would fit.

    The fact VAC upgraded their springs in their 4k head and made no effort to rev the engine out makes me wonder. Same with Dzenno.

    AFAIK no one has successfully rev'd and N54 past 7200. Whats his face with the ST did but the stock springs broke above 8k unless I am mistaken.
    MR3000GT revved to 8300 I believe and most likely broke a spring according to the cylinder leakdown test. So, that right there says this valvetrain isn't good to 9k. We need springs and then possibly some bottom end work to rev it out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, so you are confident all of the after market springs made for our car will be able to handle 9 or 10k right? If not how can you quantify if a spring will be able to handle the high revs.
    Trial and error. Valve float is very obvious on a dyno graph. You can run your mouth all you want but it doesn't change the methodology of making it worth. Trial, error, trial, error, trial, error, eventually a package is proven, then a spring with more pressure is specced anyway for production variations/different setups/room to wear and lose seat pressure over time.

    Truthfully if you were starting from 0, I'd just put springs with 50% more seat pressure and 33% more spring rate and call it a day.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    Trial and error. Valve float is very obvious on a dyno graph.
    Right, so I should buy 6 sets and try them all out huh? Sounds like something the manufacturer should be doing, not their customers.

    This is what I am getting at, VAC should be providing this information with their upgraded head or the spring manufacturers.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Right, so I should buy 6 sets and try them all out huh? Sounds like something the manufacturer should be doing, not their customers.
    I'm not going to entertain your cluelessness any longer. Good luck buying a copy of someone else's setup far into the future, the rest of us will be done with the race already.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
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    (OLD) 11 Camaro SS - 10.20@135 naturally aspirated @630rwhp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Right, so I should buy 6 sets and try them all out huh? Sounds like something the manufacturer should be doing, not their customers.
    what are you so mad about? He just telling you how it's done, not trying to steal your money.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    I'm not going to entertain your cluelessness any longer. Good luck buying a copy of someone else's setup far into the future, the rest of us will be done with the race already.
    Everything on your car is a copy from someone else's setup/car dumbass. Including your knock off downpipes, DCI, fuel pump, etc. All you have done is copy other people's setups.

    I am simply stating it would be nice for the manufacturer or shop to provide such information.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    what are you so mad about? He just telling you how it's done, not trying to steal your money.
    I'm not, he is just acting like it's so damn simple: Buy a set of springs, install, dyno, find out they don't work, buy the next set, etc. Nope that does not cost excessive time and money. Also if a spring fails during this testing I'm going to have to rebuild my block? lol. You cna write it and make it sound super simple but the fact is it is not. If it was so simple and easy it would be well known. The fact is no one has publicly reved out past 8k successfully. It's not so simple or easy or it would have already been done.

    Again my point is this kind of work should be done by the manufacturer, not the customer.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge

    I'm not, he is just acting like it's so damn simple. If it was so simple and easy it would be known. The fact is no one has publicly reved out past 7200 successfully. It's not so simple or easy or it would have already been done.
    It is simple. There is no market/money to be made there yet, which is probably why it isn't done more often. You don't necessarily need to turn 10,000rpms to make power, unless you have an enormous turbo that isn't going to spool until 7-8k. VAC has spring kits they advertise good to 12,000 rpm. The bottom end will let go long before that.



    Spring MFRs spintron test things for different setups, but again, there is little to no market for BMW parts and it is impossible to account for boost on a spintron machine. It'd be a huge money loser to do the R&D, which is why it ends up on the consumer or private shops to do the trial and error.
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  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    Good luck buying a copy of someone else's setup far into the future, the rest of us will be done with the race already.
    Please tell me more about how I just want to copy people and how you didn't copy anyone and your car is not full of knock off cheap parts.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Please tell me more about how I just want to copy people and that your car is unique and not full of KNOCK OFF CHEAP parts.
    I'm not the one whining about things that are beyond my ability.

    $#@!, I love cheap parts.
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  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    I'm not the one whining about things that are beyond my ability.

    $#@!, I love cheap parts.
    Swapping springs in a head is beyond my ability? Please go on about my mechanical prowess. lol. Not wanting to be a guinea pig doesn't mean I don't turn all of my own wrenches.

    I'm whining? What because I don't want to try 6 sets of springs and to be vetting out multiple manufacturers's products for them? All of the time while I would be vetting the springs out if a spring fails it's time for a new engine, yeah that makes sense.

    I just read VAC confirmed their springs are good for over 10k on the N54, something above that you said in reality a manufacturer can't guarantee. I now have my answer from VAC which is great.

    BTW you made a dumb ass statement about me wanting to copy people when all you have done on your car is that. hello pot, meet kettle. lol.
    Last edited by Torgus; 06-13-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Swapping springs in a head is beyond my ability? Please go on about my mechanical prowess. lol. Not wanting to be a guinea pig doesn't mean I don't turn all of my own wrenches.

    I'm whining? What because I don't want to try 6 sets of springs and to be vetting out multiple manufacturers's products for them? All of the time while I would be vetting the springs out if a spring fails it's time for a new engine, yeah that makes sense.

    I just read VAC confirmed their springs are good for over 10k on the N54, something above that you said in reality a manufacturer can't guarantee. I now have my answer from VAC which is great.

    BTW you made a dumb ass statement about me wanting to copy people when all you have done on your car is that. hello pot, meet kettle. lol.
    You seem geniunely upset. Let me offer you a tissue and my sincerest condolences.
    08' 135i - Cobb Custom E70, FBO, LSD, Suspension stuff... FOR SALE
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  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    You seem geniunely upset. Let me offer you a tissue and my sincerest condolences.
    Upset? You amuse me greatly on a Friday afternoon. Hell I have a huge smile on my face:

    You come in 1st stating high RPMs are, and I quote, 'a non issue' on this motor. Which just isn't true, everyone knows that high rpms is currently the biggest limitation now that fueling 'has' been figured out.

    Then you explain how I should/could be R&Ding multiple spring sets. Which makes no sense unless I sold heads or would somehow would make money off doing it. Certainly not worth the risk of needing a new stock block if one failed in the testing.

    Then you go on to say that I just want to copy people(Cough mr. I have more knock off parts than none knock of parts in my sig) and that replacing springs are out of my ability?

    I have a big smile on my face. You continue to amuse me.



    Getting this thread back on topic: I just read from Mike@VAC: "10k RPM in a racing environment - no problem." That answers my questions about their head and the springs they offer. No reason to try out 6 different sets when we have a manufacturer that confirms the springs will work in a high rev application in our N54 motor(Which above dietcoke said a manufacture can't guarantee).
    Last edited by Torgus; 06-13-2014 at 05:06 PM.
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    What does "in a racing environment" mean? For a short duration? Road race, hill climb, drag race? Not busting balls, just curious what he quantifies that as.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    What does "in a racing environment" mean? For a short duration? Road race, hill climb, drag race? Not busting balls, just curious what he quantifies what as.
    I think he was insinuating that they can rev to 10k all day long...at least that is what I hope Click here to enlarge. You know staying in the 7-10k rev range for long periods of time as you would in a racing environment vs. a short quick burst to 10k on a drag strip.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...439#post542439 <--I'm not sure how I missed this whole thread.


    "
    3. Preliminary pricing:

    a. Spring and retainer kit: $869.95
    b. Complete valve kit (stock or +.5): $769.95

    4. Springs are made with premium grade super-clean PAC Alloy materials. They are progressively coiled with tighter tolerances, heat treated, stress relieved, and multistage shot peen for extended life and durability. 10k RPM in a racing environment - no problem."


    So VAC says their head can rev to 10k all day, great. That thread showing the ST with their head upgrade still makes me curious:
    Click here to enlarge
    They stop reving at 6800rpms it looks like. Strange for a head built that can handle 10k. It would help sell their product alot better...On many platforms you don't have to build the block to rev out high. Like on the VQ you just need a built head to hit 9k. But you have to build the block for boost so almost anyone reving out high has a built block. Doesn't mean it is needed...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    So VAC says their head can rev to 10k all day, great.

    They stop reving at 6800rpms it looks like. Strange for a head built that can handle 10k. It would help sell their product alot better...On many platforms you don't have to build the block to rev out high. Like on the VQ you just need a built head to hit 9k. But you have to build the block for boost so almost anyone reving out high has a built block. Doesn't mean it is needed...
    According to that graph, it looks like they're revving it to 7200, and making significant gains up top.

    Just because the valve springs are rated for 10k doesn't mean the head will make power to 10k. To make power that high you need the right port work and cam profiles, and you'll generally sacrifice low rpm performance to do so.

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