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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    14 years left until we can legally import a CSL to the US. (Cars more that 25 yrs old are exempt to EPA and DOT regulations.)
    what's missing from the US requirements in the CSL?
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    14 years left until we can legally import a CSL to the US. (Cars more that 25 yrs old are exempt to EPA and DOT regulations.)
    These regulations are idiotic. It should be my choice what I want to drive. It's my body. Isn't that the argument for abortion? Well, you can't tell a woman what she can do with her body apparently but the government can tell me what cars I can sit my body in because of some insane crash test rules that the E46 already passed anyway. It's idiotic.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I agree it should have been better and it shows just how good the CSL was. I would not say failure as it is quicker, faster, and better around the track.

    I'll take a CSL too. But the GTS still exists and the F80 M3 won't outperform it around the track.
    Yeah just like the csl will outperform the e92 m3 at the track

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Yeah just like the csl will outperform the e92 m3 at the track
    Exactly which means it is not out of line for a previous gen car to outperform a new one.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly which means it is not out of line for a previous gen car to outperform a new one.
    the M3 GTS outperforms the M3 CSL on the track, i don't understand why people aren't getting this

    the lightweight special edition version of a more powerful car will always beat the lightweight special edition version of a less powerful car
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    the M3 GTS outperforms the M3 CSL on the track, i don't understand why people aren't getting this
    It does, yes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly which means it is not out of line for a previous gen car to outperform a new one.
    Yeah but that's the case with every other gen m3 the e36 euro/csl beat the regular e46 m3, the e30 evo2 beat the regular e36 m3. I don't see why that's relevant in an argument about the f80 m4 vs e92 m3 since it's always been the case

  8. #108
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Yeah but that's the case with every other gen m3 the e36 euro/csl beat the regular e46 m3, the e30 evo2 beat the regular e36 m3. I don't see why that's relevant in an argument about the f80 m4 vs e92 m3 since it's always been the case
    It's plenty relevant. If someone is saying the F80 M3 is such a superior performer and you can bring up an E9X that it does not outperform it goes to show the previous gen platform is more than capable.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Yeah but that's the case with every other gen m3 the e36 euro/csl beat the regular e46 m3, the e30 evo2 beat the regular e36 m3. I don't see why that's relevant in an argument about the f80 m4 vs e92 m3 since it's always been the case
    precisely, and what did BMW do for each of those situations? e36 LTW beat all e30s, e46 GTR and CSL beats all e36s, e92 GTS beats all e46s, the pattern will continue
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's plenty relevant. If someone is saying the F80 M3 is such a superior performer and you can bring up an E9X that it does not outperform it goes to show the previous gen platform is more than capable.
    sure but the newer gen platform is obviously even more capable of performing

    edit: except for power
    Last edited by rawad1017; 05-15-2014 at 01:23 AM.
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    sure but the newer gen platform is obviously even more capable of performing

    edit: except for power
    I'm not saying it isn't going to perform.

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    I've lusted after an M3 for a long time, and I finally bought one a few months ago. Normally, it seems crazy to buy a leftover old model when a new, revamped, more powerful and efficient one is about to be released. But when the dealership had this 2013 E92 sitting there - for a nice discount, as an added bonus - I couldn't resist. To provide some context, I was trading in a 135i with the N55, with JB4, downpipe, and intake. This little car made a massive amount of power, and was probably every bit as fast in a straight line as the M3 (the chassis, however, is another story - woefully inadequate stock for the amount of power the car made). However, there was still something missing, and it wasn't that hard to figure out what. I never had any real urge to rev the car because it ran out of steam at anything above 5500 rpm. While torque is addicting, high rpm horsepower is exhilarating, and that's what the S65 offers. I absolutely love my M3, and don't regret for a moment spending the money to move up from the 135i. Now that it is broken in and I can rev it, I remember what I loved about the first BMW I had (one of many things!). When I drove my N52 328i enthusiastically, it begged to be revved, and that made it fun even though it was only moderately powerful. At the end of the day, after reflecting on what it is that I really enjoy about driving, it's clear to me that a high revving naturally aspirated car puts a bigger smile on my face than a boosted car that doesn't like to rev as much, even if the boosted car is just as fast or faster. Thus my eagerness to pick up an E92 and lack of desire to own an M4. This does not mean that the E92 is better - the M4 is undoubtedly a superior car in almost every respect. But what I care about is: which car is likely to put a big smile on my face? And the E92 certainly does that.

    Regarding responsiveness, I recall reading up on the JB4 before I bought it and many people talked about how little lag there was. I didn't perceive that at all. The difference between being on boost and not was so pronounced that it made the engine's power delivery seem much less linear than stock. And that difference was felt, even if only for a split second, every time you abruptly floored the accelerator. The S65, on the other hand, offers instant, linear response. I'll be very curious to drive an M4 to see if it really is anywhere close to as responsive and linear as the S65.

    I am certainly not claiming that an N55 with some aftermarket performance parts is as good as the new M engine. But it does give a general basis for comparing forced induction vs naturally aspirated. And yes the sound matters too. The 135i with catless dp and performance exhaust was loud, but the character of the sound matters more than the volume. And the intake noise of the S65 revving has a beautiful, mechanical character.

    All of the things that I mention are just a matter of what I find satisfying. Different strokes for different folks. My experience with AMGs is limited to one car (but a good one): an SLS AMG on a track, driven back to back with a 997 turbo. That comparison is definitely one of sledgehammer vs scalpel. In that comparison I prefer the scalpel, and since I have always associated the AMGs with the sledgehammer, I have an M3 and not a C63. What I find most fascinating about Sutcliffe's review is that one doesn't really get the sense that that comparison applies, given what he says about the AMGs steering and overall feel. Very interesting.

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    Who cares how great or not great the engine is in stock form. We all know that almost everyone on this site isn't going to keep a new M3/4 stock.

    I'm curious to see how well this new engine holds up to additional boost and upgraded turbos Click here to enlarge
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Who cares how great or not great the engine is in stock form. We all know that almost everyone on this site isn't going to keep a new M3/4 stock.

    I'm curious to see how well this new engine holds up to additional boost and upgraded turbos Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Who cares how great or not great the engine is in stock form. We all know that almost everyone on this site isn't going to keep a new M3/4 stock.

    I'm curious to see how well this new engine holds up to additional boost and upgraded turbos Click here to enlarge
    Upping the boost won't change the power delivery characteristics or throttle response. That is the point of criticism.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mpjc Click here to enlarge
    I've lusted after an M3 for a long time, and I finally bought one a few months ago. Normally, it seems crazy to buy a leftover old model when a new, revamped, more powerful and efficient one is about to be released. But when the dealership had this 2013 E92 sitting there - for a nice discount, as an added bonus - I couldn't resist. To provide some context, I was trading in a 135i with the N55, with JB4, downpipe, and intake. This little car made a massive amount of power, and was probably every bit as fast in a straight line as the M3 (the chassis, however, is another story - woefully inadequate stock for the amount of power the car made). However, there was still something missing, and it wasn't that hard to figure out what. I never had any real urge to rev the car because it ran out of steam at anything above 5500 rpm. While torque is addicting, high rpm horsepower is exhilarating, and that's what the S65 offers. I absolutely love my M3, and don't regret for a moment spending the money to move up from the 135i. Now that it is broken in and I can rev it, I remember what I loved about the first BMW I had (one of many things!). When I drove my N52 328i enthusiastically, it begged to be revved, and that made it fun even though it was only moderately powerful. At the end of the day, after reflecting on what it is that I really enjoy about driving, it's clear to me that a high revving naturally aspirated car puts a bigger smile on my face than a boosted car that doesn't like to rev as much, even if the boosted car is just as fast or faster. Thus my eagerness to pick up an E92 and lack of desire to own an M4. This does not mean that the E92 is better - the M4 is undoubtedly a superior car in almost every respect. But what I care about is: which car is likely to put a big smile on my face? And the E92 certainly does that.

    Regarding responsiveness, I recall reading up on the JB4 before I bought it and many people talked about how little lag there was. I didn't perceive that at all. The difference between being on boost and not was so pronounced that it made the engine's power delivery seem much less linear than stock. And that difference was felt, even if only for a split second, every time you abruptly floored the accelerator. The S65, on the other hand, offers instant, linear response. I'll be very curious to drive an M4 to see if it really is anywhere close to as responsive and linear as the S65.

    I am certainly not claiming that an N55 with some aftermarket performance parts is as good as the new M engine. But it does give a general basis for comparing forced induction vs naturally aspirated. And yes the sound matters too. The 135i with catless dp and performance exhaust was loud, but the character of the sound matters more than the volume. And the intake noise of the S65 revving has a beautiful, mechanical character.

    All of the things that I mention are just a matter of what I find satisfying. Different strokes for different folks. My experience with AMGs is limited to one car (but a good one): an SLS AMG on a track, driven back to back with a 997 turbo. That comparison is definitely one of sledgehammer vs scalpel. In that comparison I prefer the scalpel, and since I have always associated the AMGs with the sledgehammer, I have an M3 and not a C63. What I find most fascinating about Sutcliffe's review is that one doesn't really get the sense that that comparison applies, given what he says about the AMGs steering and overall feel. Very interesting.
    This is a good post. Repped.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Upping the boost won't change the power delivery characteristics or throttle response. That is the point of criticism.
    A tune can change the throttle mapping.

    You're going to be throwing twin turbos on your S65. It's going to have a lot more low-end boost and have plenty of power to redline.

    Who knows how well the S55 will handle more boost and how much the turbos can handle? But, once companies upgrade the turbos or throw bigger ones on there, I'm sure the power delivery characteristics will be very similar to what you're going to have on your S65 (i.e., throw you into the back of your seat and hold you there till redline).
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  18. #118
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    A tune can change the throttle mapping.
    It doesn't matter. It can't match the response.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    You're going to be throwing twin turbos on your S65. It's going to have a lot more low-end boost and have plenty of power to redline.
    I'd prefer for BMW to build their turbo motors like they built their NA motors. High compression, high revving, mild boost.

    I'm building for power which is why turbos make the most sense. It's also why using the S65 as a base makes the most sense.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Who knows how well the S55 will handle more boost and how much the turbos can handle? But, once companies upgrade the turbos or throw bigger ones on there, I'm sure the power delivery characteristics will be very similar to what you're going to have on your S65 (i.e., throw you into the back of your seat and hold you there till redline).
    It will not be similar. Go for a ride in a turbo S65 and then in an N55/N54. It's not the same thing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I can't find the image from a review I read but I thought one of the main points was that when the DCT shifts in the new m3 it is still at full power vs. the V8 having to build back up to peak power after every shift. Gotta find that image. It was a compelling argument.

    Oh, I understand what you mean now... The S55 has full horsepower (makes peak power) from 5700-7200 RPM, so they likely mean that the gearing is set so that the falloff after an upshift is still in the peak? That's my guess. It's a nice meaty powerband, that's for sure.

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    it's clear here that the S55 is to the S65 as the S63tu is to the S85
    '08 535xi - fbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Thing is, at the track in the S65, you are really never outside the flat part of that curve - unless you are in the wrong gear.
    Are you sure? When you shift at redline what rpm does it fall back to at the next gear? For both DCT and manual do you know? I find it hard to believe it is constantly at it's peak HP as the rev's increase being NA and all...


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Oh, I understand what you mean now... The S55 has full horsepower (makes peak power) from 5700-7200 RPM, so they likely mean that the gearing is set so that the falloff after an upshift is still in the peak? That's my guess. It's a nice meaty powerband, that's for sure.
    Exactly. You are always in the meat of the power band if shifting at redline. I can only assume this is because they are bleeding off boost to give you such a wide and large power range but keep the power exactly the same throughout it vs. it increasing linearly like the S65.




    According to chris harris:

    "Performance?
    Scorching. The manual will hit 100mph in nine seconds dead, the DCT in 8.7 seconds. It hardly feels turbocharged and the torque is all-consuming. Real-world, this car is miles quicker than the old E92, and the torque means the rear axle loads up much earlier in a given turn, meaning you have the sensation of controlling the car's attitude with your right foot far more than you did before. "

    Throttle response.
    "I didn't have any problem with the throttle response. In comfort the throttle is long and a little lazy - normally I like that, but the shorter sport and sport-plus settings worked better in this car for me. In the latter the speakers mess around with the intake noise some more. Compared to, say, an E46 you lose a tiny amount of instant zap, but considering it has two turbochargers, you can take several stabs mid-corner to trim your line and the response is always there. It's worth revving out to 7,500rpm too."

    Would you?
    Absolutely. I loved my E92, but it was surprisingly limited as my daily driver. Opportunities to enjoy that motor beyond 7,000 were predictably limited, the lack of torque left you exposed to turbo hot hatches.




    No video review up yet but pistonheads has the review.
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    Click here to enlarge

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    I was at the local wine shop (as is normal for me tonight) and there was an E9x M3, dark blue, magnificent and a new 435i (??)..

    E9x sound is GREAT... in the class of an F430 IMHO....

    I'll take the E9x anyday if the new M4 sounds and looks like the 435
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Are you sure? When you shift at redline what rpm does it fall back to at the next gear? For both DCT and manual do you know? I find it hard to believe it is constantly at it's peak HP as the rev's increase being NA and all...
    Don't know - for the 6MT, over 6k I believe. There is no sensation of losing power. In fact, if you are not smooth on the shift, the car can lunge forward and/or lose traction depending on the gear, surface, etc.


    Exactly. You are always in the meat of the power band if shifting at redline. I can only assume this is because they are bleeding off boost to give you such a wide and large power range but keep the power exactly the same throughout it vs. it increasing linearly like the S65.
    I doubt very seriously that BMW left power on the table towards redline so that the car would feel "the same" in power at high revs to the lower revs. There are surely other design implications that lead to bleeding off boost as basically every production turbo does this.

    Honestly, discussions like this make my head hurt. People draw graphs and run calculations, etc. If you just drive the two cars (at the track) it will be obvious to an experienced driver where to shift, etc.

    They are just tools - you use them accordingly. The same way a Corvette revs low but has tons of power. Is it better, worse, faster, etc? It is a matter of preference for the most part at these power levels. All of these cars are monsters on the track. I don't autocross so I can't comment there.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Group.america Click here to enlarge
    I was at the local wine shop (as is normal for me tonight) and there was an E9x M3, dark blue, magnificent and a new 435i (??)..

    E9x sound is GREAT... in the class of an F430 IMHO....

    I'll take the E9x anyday if the new M4 sounds and looks like the 435
    I saw a white 435 today and I must say it looked awesome on the road. I could not hear it as I passed in the Scud though - exhaust and rocks hitting the wheel wells : )
    2009 BMW E92 M3 | 2012 BMW X5 35d | 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia | 1978 Ferrari 308 GTS

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    14 years left until we can legally import a CSL to the US. (Cars more that 25 yrs old are exempt to EPA and DOT regulations.)

    Buy one. Put it in managed storage in the UK. And then you'll have a mint bit of history to scare all the electric cars in 14 years time.

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