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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I just don't get people who complain about the sound of the engine. Who gives a $#@!!?! Mustangs have sounded great for years. They're still slow and until recently sucked to drive. More tq, more HP, WTF do you people want. Certainly not progress. This sounds like a Porsche forum right now.
    A lot of people, or no manufacturer would bother tuning their exhausts...or spending millions developing an in-cabin system to enhance them.

    Nice attitude. You guys don't agree with me so you don't want progress...Porsche guys. LOL.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    So a V8 sound is a V8 sound. Who cares, if it's slow. Go get a Mustang and it'll sound just as good or better. I bet that the new M3/M4 will put down better lap times than the S65. So what are the purists going to complain about then? The sound? Who cares.
    Haha - no.

    Ferrari V8 - flatplane crank; sounds awesome. Sounds exotic.
    S65 V8 - crossplane crank; individual throttle bodies; sounds great. Sounds exotic.
    Classic Mustang V8 - pushrod - sounds pretty good, but matter of preference. Sounds American.

  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Haha - no.

    Ferrari V8 - flatplane crank; sounds awesome. Sounds exotic.
    S65 V8 - crossplane crank; individual throttle bodies; sounds great. Sounds exotic.
    Classic Mustang V8 - pushrod - sounds pretty good, but matter of preference. Sounds American.
    Dont you own both a ferrari v8 and a s65 v8 ? Funny you think they both sound great haha I think the m156 is the greatest sounding v8 ever ! Its all preference in sound not like its a solid number 3.9 is faster then 4.4. I personally think the s55 sounds way better outside then the s63tu all it needs is to kill the fuse for active sound and a catless down pipe. Time of the great N/A motors are done hold on to what you have and keep them in good shape

  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Time of the great N/A motors are done
    At BMW. Plenty of automakers are still making great NA engines.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    At BMW. Plenty of automakers are still making great NA engines.
    BMW, AMG, Audi, Porsche, even Ferrari are going Turbo route it will only live on in high end exotics probably with batteries boosting them haha plus Murica will hold onto them forever but i wouldnt call them the "great" NA Motors. Btw picked up my sting ray saturday what a machine !!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    BMW, AMG, Audi, Porsche, even Ferrari are going Turbo route it will only live on in high end exotics probably with batteries boosting them haha plus Murica will hold onto them forever but i wouldnt call them the "great" NA Motors. Btw picked up my sting ray saturday what a machine !!!!
    Yes, more are going to the boosted route (yay for boost sites) but there still are great NA motors being produced.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Btw picked up my sting ray saturday what a machine !!!!
    WTF really? Not even a thread? Congratulations. I'm jealous. Hoping my M3 stops burning holes in my pocket for long enough so I can get mine.

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  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why not? But it's fair for people to compare a brand new car to a car released in 2008? Doesn't the GTS show how capable the E92 is as a track car? Isn't it a more capable track car than the F80 M3?
    1. people will always compare the new car to the old car to see what's changed, everyone does that.
    2. think about it like this. when you compare 2 generations of Porsche 911s, do you compare a 991 GT3 to a 997 GT3 RS? same thing you're doing here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why? Who knows if they will. It doesn't change the E92 M3 with the S65 V8 being the better track weapon.
    i think they will. because they cannot allow any previous gen M3, special edition or not, to outperform any current gen M3. sure the E92 M3 outperforms the E46 M3 CSL,but not the GTR. in my opinion this was a major reason they made the GTS. the F8x will have a special edition track weapon that will walk all over the GTS. that's for a future discussion, though.
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  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Dont you own both a ferrari v8 and a s65 v8 ? Funny you think they both sound great haha I think the m156 is the greatest sounding v8 ever ! Its all preference in sound not like its a solid number 3.9 is faster then 4.4. I personally think the s55 sounds way better outside then the s63tu all it needs is to kill the fuse for active sound and a catless down pipe. Time of the great N/A motors are done hold on to what you have and keep them in good shape
    I wouldn't have bought them otherwise : )

    m156 sounds awesome also - and very different than the ones I mentioned as I believe you would agree. I like them a lot also but have very little seat time in one, so not as attached emotionally.

    I was just responding to the "all V8s sound the same" - which is plain silly.

    Hold them forever and share them with as many is the plan!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    1. people will always compare the new car to the old car to see what's changed, everyone does that.
    2. think about it like this. when you compare 2 generations of Porsche 911s, do you compare a 991 GT3 to a 997 GT3 RS? same thing you're doing here.
    Of course. Why wouldn't you compare the 991 GT3 to all the 997 GT3's? It's done fairly often.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    i think they will. because they cannot allow any previous gen M3, special edition or not, to outperform any current gen M3. sure the E92 M3 outperforms the E46 M3 CSL,but not the GTR. in my opinion this was a major reason they made the GTS. the F8x will have a special edition track weapon that will walk all over the GTS. that's for a future discussion, though.
    Well they said they are not planning on it though.

    The GTR had nothing to do with the decision to produce the GTS. The GTR is not the M3's target or BMW's for that matter.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    i think they will. because they cannot allow any previous gen M3, special edition or not, to outperform any current gen M3. sure the E92 M3 outperforms the E46 M3 CSL,but not the GTR. in my opinion this was a major reason they made the GTS. the F8x will have a special edition track weapon that will walk all over the GTS. that's for a future discussion, though.

    I understand what you are saying, but I have to say I disagree with this. Just because something is newer, doesn't mean it has to be a better performer. Yes, most of the time, technology comes into play - and all around (read: on a track) - the newer car with newer tech will be a better performer.

    However, when you completely change design/goals/lines not to cross, that changes the story. If BMW M stuck to their NA high revving concept, it would "evolve" from it's current state.

    They didn't do this. They didn't put the engineering effort into the engine like in the past, and instead chose to place more effort on weight/chassis/steering/feel. Point is, it's not something where I would say it's faster just because it's newer. It probably IS faster, but wouldn't use this as a rule of thumb.

    Regarding the e46 CSL - that's one of the best M3s ever made IMO. It weighs 3100 lbs instead of 3550 lbs (CSL to e90 M3), and creates 355 hp and 274 lb-ft of torque across the board from a 3.2 liter inline 6 - a measly 22 lb-ft of torque less than the 4.0l v8. Impressive...

    I personally think BMW started going down the path of "pleasing everyone" with the e90/2 M3; instead of making a track focused car that can be driven on the street (CSL), they instead made a streetcar capable of going on the track (if that makes sense). I love my M3, but would trade it in a heartbeat for a CSL.

    The CSL, although older - has better fuel economy than my S65 powered car, has a very similar power to weight ratio, has one of the best NA I6 engines (if not the best) around. It also beats my car around Hockenheim - and probably could run it down other places as well.

    Yes, the E90/92 is "better" if you care about the niceties (luxury/newer/etc.) - but this is a perfect example of a newer car not "outperforming" the old.

    Just like the jump to the current gen M3 from the E90/2, and the E90/2 from the E46 M3, it's all getting softer. Yeah - for sure, it's a better highway machine; it will win more races for the inexperienced drivers (who will simply mash the gas). This pleases more people, and BMW is bowing to this.

    Instead of having insane throttle response, high revs, absurd BSFC numbers, a beautiful sounding engine note, a perfectly flat torque curve, etc. - they chose to change it up and go with turbos to get grunt down low, to please the common person, and to help with fuel economy.

    When buying an M3, I want former - however, BMW knows it will sell more if they appease the latter. It all started with the last (previous) generation, and they are continuing the trend.

    For the perfect M3, this is what I would like to have seen:
    Add DI to the S65, put it on a diet, harden everything up (a la CSL). They would have had a MUCH better car for track duty. Will the 50 year old business man not like the fact that he has to rev it to 8500 RPM to beat a comparable car on the highway? No. Are there more of him than the enthusiast? Looks that way.

    I don't think that the definition of "outperform" in regard to an M3 is the same for everyone - and that's the whole point/problem...

    I type too much. Click here to enlarge

    TL;DR; - comparing previous generations of M3 made sense; however it no longer does. Looking at the attributes that made an M special in the past no longer are attributes on the current generation. It's a whole different car - basically, a miniature current-gen M5. Nothing drastically special.

    Is it fast? Hell yeah.

    Cheers.

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  12. #87
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    I can't find the image from a review I read but I thought one of the main points was that when the DCT shifts in the new m3 it is still at full power vs. the V8 having to build back up to peak power after every shift. Gotta find that image. It was a compelling argument.
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    ^^holding boost through the shifts. gotta love it.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    Going by what Chris Harris has been saying on twitter. He is going to rave about this car in his video review.

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    just for clarification..i'm talking about the m3 gtr. hopefully no one missed that.

    the way i see it is this: e46 m3 gtr > e92 m3, so BMW builds the e92 M3 gts. with that logic, e92 m3 gts > f82 m4, so bmw should build a csl type variant of the m4. probably gonna be a shoulda coulda woulda thing though
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    Exactly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
    just for clarification..i'm talking about the m3 gtr. hopefully no one missed that.

    the way i see it is this: e46 m3 gtr > e92 m3, so BMW builds the e92 M3 gts. with that logic, e92 m3 gts > f82 m4, so bmw should build a csl type variant of the m4. probably gonna be a shoulda coulda woulda thing though
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I can't find the image from a review I read but I thought one of the main points was that when the DCT shifts in the new m3 it is still at full power vs. the V8 having to build back up to peak power after every shift. Gotta find that image. It was a compelling argument.
    Anti-lag as someone mentioned.

    Was not needed on S65 - if you shift at ~8k, you have the same amount of power when the next gear engages - do to the awesome power band. On this new turbo model, if they didn't do the anti-lag, there would be a lag to get back to where you were in terms of power. At least - that is it in theory...have not driven it.

    Anti-lag on rally cars sounds awesome. Anti-lag by BMW sounds like a 110lb jockey farting.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Anti-lag as someone mentioned.

    Was not needed on S65 - if you shift at ~8k, you have the same amount of power when the next gear engages - do to the awesome power band. On this new turbo model, if they didn't do the anti-lag, there would be a lag to get back to where you were in terms of power. At least - that is it in theory...have not driven it.

    Anti-lag on rally cars sounds awesome. Anti-lag by BMW sounds like a 110lb jockey farting.
    Exactly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I can't find the image from a review I read but I thought one of the main points was that when the DCT shifts in the new m3 it is still at full power vs. the V8 having to build back up to peak power after every shift. Gotta find that image. It was a compelling argument.
    This isn't around the DCT transmission "giving more torque" - the torque is handed off between gears on both cars similarly. One of the large purposes of DCT in a sports car is to prevent shift shock, in other words, the amount of torque applied to the ground should never reach 0, and should remain nearly the same after the gear change.

    What you read (likely) is the same thing that I am thinking about (and mentioned above) with anti-lag and the dethrottling tricks BMW threw in the car to slow the revs down between shifts..

    The only way to add power from shifts, would be for the computer to purposely rev the engine the exact moment before the shift is complete (clutch kick). In other words, you are at redline - shifting from 2nd to 3rd; the computer knows exactly how many RPM the engine needs to drop (this is called dethrottling) to be at the exact same speed in 3rd as you are going in 2nd at redline. It could purposely add some RPM to give a "jerk", but that negates the purpose of the transmission I would think.

    They should do what Porsche does, and allow a neutral mode (pull both paddles back while driving) - to do a clutch drop "manually". A bit disappointed they didn't do this. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge

    There that picture. When it shifts it's still at full 425bhp, where the current M3 has to build up to 415 bhp from probably 380 or so after the shift.


    @Sticky I'm going to assume the reason the reviews say the the top end does feels 'weak' is because the boost is being bled off most likely to give you that flat range at the top. At least from the picture that is what I see. While a linear power increase probably 'feels' better having the engine produce an exact amount of power over the whole gear is probably better on the track.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    There that picture. When it shifts it's still at full 425bhp, where the current M3 has to build up to 415 bhp from probably 380 or so after the shift.


    @Sticky I'm going to assume the reason the reviews say the the top end does feels 'weak' is because the boost is being bled off most likely to give you that flat range at the top. At least from the picture that is what I see. While a linear power increase probably 'feels' better having the engine produce an exact amount of power over the whole gear is probably better on the track.
    Heh - needs a scale.

    Thing is, at the track in the S65, you are really never outside the flat part of that curve - unless you are in the wrong gear. On the street, it is going to be much easier for the average driver to accelerate consistently and easily in the new M3/M4 IMO.

    I'm sure the new M3 is faster; every M3 is faster than the last. The question really is if it is more enjoyable to drive/own. I don't really want to drive a dealer's car and flog it unless I'm interested in a purchase - which I am not. Maybe M school is the answer once they re-stock to the new models.

    The other thing that concerns me is the electric steering - never driven a car with one...but reviews seem to indicate the Porsche and BMW systems are solid. I'd like to find out for myself. Although again, it will be hard to determine without really pushing the car hard. Seems like there was great feedback in the autocar review else how would he pull off those slides?
    2009 BMW E92 M3 | 2012 BMW X5 35d | 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia | 1978 Ferrari 308 GTS

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's a street car.



    I'm comparing the new M3 to the old M3. Sorry BMW built the M3 GTS?



    People are stupid. It's not better because it's faster.
    The m3 gts was somewhat of a failed attempt to recreate the csl. It only beat the csl by a whopping 2 seconds on the nuburgring. If you want to compare m3 generations than you could say the gts wasn't much of an improvement over the csl. I know id take a csl over a gts any day of the week.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    @Sticky I'm going to assume the reason the reviews say the the top end does feels 'weak' is because the boost is being bled off most likely to give you that flat range at the top. At least from the picture that is what I see. While a linear power increase probably 'feels' better having the engine produce an exact amount of power over the whole gear is probably better on the track.
    Or the head sucks and the turbo is dying up top.

    Can you name a single turbo M motor where the torque doesn't drop off hard toward redline? I can't. None of these turbo motors have the top end curve of the NA M motors.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    The m3 gts was somewhat of a failed attempt to recreate the csl. It only beat the csl by a whopping 2 seconds on the nuburgring. If you want to compare m3 generations than you could say the gts wasn't much of an improvement over the csl. I know id take a csl over a gts any day of the week.
    I agree it should have been better and it shows just how good the CSL was. I would not say failure as it is quicker, faster, and better around the track.

    I'll take a CSL too. But the GTS still exists and the F80 M3 won't outperform it around the track.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Heh - needs a scale.

    Thing is, at the track in the S65, you are really never outside the flat part of that curve - unless you are in the wrong gear. On the street, it is going to be much easier for the average driver to accelerate consistently and easily in the new M3/M4 IMO.

    I'm sure the new M3 is faster; every M3 is faster than the last. The question really is if it is more enjoyable to drive/own. I don't really want to drive a dealer's car and flog it unless I'm interested in a purchase - which I am not. Maybe M school is the answer once they re-stock to the new models.

    The other thing that concerns me is the electric steering - never driven a car with one...but reviews seem to indicate the Porsche and BMW systems are solid. I'd like to find out for myself. Although again, it will be hard to determine without really pushing the car hard. Seems like there was great feedback in the autocar review else how would he pull off those slides?
    My thoughts exactly.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I agree it should have been better and it shows just how good the CSL was. I would not say failure as it is quicker, faster, and better around the track.

    I'll take a CSL too. But the GTS still exists and the F80 M3 won't outperform it around the track.
    14 years left until we can legally import a CSL to the US. (Cars more that 25 yrs old are exempt to EPA and DOT regulations.)


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