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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Engine configuration doesn't matter. DIFFERENT IS DIFFERENT. If that's the case then manufacturers should just bore and stroke the $h!t out of their motors for more power and say it's still V10, V8, etc. You can't be lenient in one aspect then draconian in the other.
    The issue here is very clear. BMW races a Z4M. They do not sell one. They are hypocrites. They only build one thing? L O L

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    Thanks for the education Stick...I didn't know all that.

    There is a place for a manufacturer racecar series, and there is a place for a street-racecar series. I personally have a problem identifying with BMW's racecars for this reason. They are nothing like the roadcars. $#@!, the DTM cars are cool - but they might as well be $#@!ing spaceships. Contrast this with the golden years of the e30...just sucks now.

    People want to see their roadcar in costume, on roids, with a $#@!ing cape conquering the world. I 100% agree...no interest in watching a skunkworks Z4 compete in this series. I'll pull for Ferrari or someone else.

    I use to love to watch the Audi S4s in GT and Subaru STi's in WRC for this reason - they were extensions/crazy-versions of the street car.

    What is this thing? Why should I care as a fan?

  3. #28
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    DTM is a whole different thing. It's German NASCAR and nobody pretends that the cars have anything in common with the street cars. Well, nobody other than the marketing people trying to draw idiotic parallels.

    I want to cheer for BMW but it's hard when they don't give me anything to cheer for. When the M3 was racing and my own M3 is a reasonable facsimile that is awesome. Is any Z4 owner cheering because it's similar? Is anyone proud of BMW for using loopholes to race instead of building race bred cars like what the M badge is supposed to denote?

    Gentlemen, you can get M badges on a front wheel drive BMW today and you can't buy a Z4M that they use to race. Do you get how f'd up that is?

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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    DTM is a whole different thing. It's German NASCAR and nobody pretends that the cars have anything in common with the street cars. Well, nobody other than the marketing people trying to draw idiotic parallels.

    I want to cheer for BMW but it's hard when they don't give me anything to cheer for. When the M3 was racing and my own M3 is a reasonable facsimile that is awesome. Is any Z4 owner cheering because it's similar? Is anyone proud of BMW for using loopholes to race instead of building race bred cars like what the M badge is supposed to denote?

    Gentlemen, you can get M badges on a front wheel drive BMW today and you can't buy a Z4M that they use to race. Do you get how f'd up that is?
    Yup - totally agree. My point with DTM is that it was not always like this. In the original years, they were suped-up roadcars. Now, the rules alllow the spaceships. I have no issue with that, but give me the damn roadcar series as well! I agree - I loosely followed Rahal/Letterman when they had the M3, now I don't care at all with the Z4. Actually, I need to buy the M3 pedal car for my little girl before they replace it with the Z4 no one wants!

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The issue here is very clear. BMW races a Z4M. They do not sell one. They are hypocrites. They only build one thing? L O L
    Porsche doesn't sell a 991 with a metzger
    Dodge doesn't sell a SRT with an 8.0 V10
    Chevy doesn't sell a Vette with a 5.5 V8
    Ferrari doesn't sell a 458 with a 4.0 V8
    etc, etc, etc...

    Click here to enlarge

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    Very true STICKY whats the purpose for this M badging just a NAME!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Porsche doesn't sell a 991 with a metzger
    They did sell a 4.0 liter 911 GT3 with the exact same motor. Obviously they updated the car with the 991 generation and are stuck in limbo until the 991 GT3 RS hits. You are punishing them for making yet another GT3? Have they ever not sold a GT3 they raced? They did with with the 997.1 and 997.2 didn't they? They did it with the 996 MKI and MKII models didn't they?

    How many V8 Z4M's have we seen from BMW? Well? Can you go into a BMW dealership and get one? I can walk into a Porsche dealership and pick up something very similar to what they race.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Dodge doesn't sell a SRT with an 8.0 V10
    You're right. They sell an 8.4 liter SRT10 coupe. BMW doesn't sell a Z4M with an even larger motor.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Chevy doesn't sell a Vette with a 5.5 V8
    See above.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Ferrari doesn't sell a 458 with a 4.0 V8
    It's the F142 V8 based on the same basic design. It's a 4.5 liter, not a 4.0

    Guess what, you can buy all of these cars. You can't buy a Z4 with a V8. Someone has to be blind not to see the distinction.

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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They did sell a 4.0 liter 911 GT3 with the exact same motor. Obviously they updated the car with the 991 generation and are stuck in limbo until the 991 GT3 RS hits. You are punishing them for making yet another GT3? Have they ever not sold a GT3 they raced? They did with with the 997.1 and 997.2 didn't they? They did it with the 996 MKI and MKII models didn't they?

    How many V8 Z4M's have we seen from BMW? Well? Can you go into a BMW dealership and get one? I can walk into a Porsche dealership and pick up something very similar to what they race.



    You're right. They sell an 8.4 liter SRT10 coupe. BMW doesn't sell a Z4M with an even larger motor.



    See above.



    It's the F142 V8 based on the same basic design. It's a 4.5 liter, not a 4.0

    Guess what, you can buy all of these cars. You can't buy a Z4 with a V8. Someone has to be blind not to see the distinction.
    But they all DO NOT match production spec...if you want to scrutinize one, you must scrutinize them all. This is one of the few production series where performance balancing is producing multiple winning manufacturers so I see no reason for complaints or grievances.

    Click here to enlarge

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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    But they all DO NOT match production spec...if you want to scrutinize one, you must scrutinize them all. This is one of the few production series where performance balancing is producing multiple winning manufacturers so I see no reason for complaints or grievances.
    How are you going to have a 100% match? You have street cars matching safety and emissions regulations. Why would anyone expect a perfect match?

    The Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 is the closest you can get legally on the street. It's actually the same damn motor.

    Every manufacturer builds what they race except BMW. Your point is completely invalid and frankly you are reaching so far I wonder how anyone can make it with a straight face. As established in my article, BMW has a history of bending the rules.

    The complaint is BMW M not building cars based on what BMW M races. Do you not see the hypocrisy of the brand itself? It's crystal clear to me.

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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How are you going to have a 100% match? You have street cars matching safety and emissions regulations. Why would anyone expect a perfect match?

    The Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 is the closest you can get legally on the street. It's actually the same damn motor.

    Every manufacturer builds what they race except BMW. Your point is completely invalid and frankly you are reaching so far I wonder how anyone can make it with a straight face. As established in my article, BMW has a history of bending the rules.

    The complaint is BMW M not building cars based on what BMW M races. Do you not see the hypocrisy of the brand itself? It's crystal clear to me.
    Correction...every manufacturer races something close to what they build. There is no 991 GT3 RS 4.0, and the current 991 GT3 motor is nothing like the one they are racing with.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Correction...every manufacturer races something close to what they build.
    How?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    There is no 991 GT3 RS 4.0
    The 991 generation GT3 just came out. You are punishing Porsche for a new generation? Here's your 911 GT3 4.0:

    Click here to enlarge

    Here's your Z4M V8:

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    and the current 991 GT3 motor is nothing like the one they are racing with.
    Because the 991 just came out... what is so hard to understand about that? Has Porsche ever sold a GT3 with this motor? Yes, they have actually made GT3's with this motor since 1999. BMW raced a V8 back in 2001 and still hasn't produced a Z4 with one. How are you equating these again? How is there any logic to your point?

    You are telling me this relates to a production BMW Z4 somehow?

    Click here to enlarge

    Guess what, you can find Porsche's motor in several generations of GT3's. Arguing that Porsche doesn't sell it when they have sold it for over a decade as somehow the same as BMW never producing a Z4M with a V8 let alone an E89 Z4M is about as flawed of an argument one can make. How can you be serious?

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  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How?



    The 991 generation GT3 just came out. You are punishing Porsche for a new generation? Here's your 911 GT3 4.0:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...GT3RS406-1.jpg

    Here's your Z4M V8:

    http://www.opednews.com/populum/uplo...130324-179.jpg



    Because the 991 just came out... what is so hard to understand about that? Has Porsche ever sold a GT3 with this motor? Yes, they have actually made GT3's with this motor since 1999. BMW raced a V8 back in 2001 and still hasn't produced a Z4 with one. How are you equating these again? How is there any logic to your point?

    You are telling me this relates to a production BMW Z4 somehow?

    http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...gtealmse-1.jpg

    Guess what, you can find Porsche's motor in several generations of GT3's. Arguing that Porsche doesn't sell it when they have sold it for over a decade as somehow the same as BMW never producing a Z4M with a V8 let alone an E89 Z4M is about as flawed of an argument one can make. How can you be serious?
    It's an easy point to make. You're just applying a double standard that has no bearing which is why IMSA allows BMW to race. I think they might know a little more on this subject matter than any of us...just saying Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    You're just applying a double standard that has no bearing which is why IMSA allows BMW to race
    What is the double standard? There is no Z4M with a V8. There is no E89 Z4M. There is no E89 Z4 coupe. Even if we go so far as to ignore that Porsche races what they go out of their way to build a street car out of (let's just ignore the 997 GT3, 997 GT3 RS, 997 GT3 RS 4.0) Porsche still sells a GT3. BMW does not sell anything resembling what they race. Nothing. Zero.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    I think they might know a little more on this subject matter than any of us...just saying
    The IMSA took over and didn't update the rules. They don't care about the spirit of competition they just want BMW involved for $. Did you not read the article and the rules?

    If you have no problem with what BMW is doing that is your opinion. I think it's BS and I'd prefer for manufacturers to actually build what they race. Just saying.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What is the double standard? There is no Z4M with a V8. There is no E89 Z4M. There is no E89 Z4 coupe. Even if we go so far as to ignore that Porsche races what they go out of their way to build a street car out of (let's just ignore the 997 GT3, 997 GT3 RS, 997 GT3 RS 4.0) Porsche still sells a GT3. BMW does not sell anything resembling what they race. Nothing. Zero.



    The IMSA took over and didn't update the rules. They don't care about the spirit of competition they just want BMW involved for $. Did you not read the article and the rules?

    If you have no problem with what BMW is doing that is your opinion. I think it's BS and I'd prefer for manufacturers to actually build what they race. Just saying.
    All you're doing is ignoring one major technical difference for another...so in the end you're not saying much. Using a past chassis which porsche has stated is vastly different from the current 991 platform isn't a strong case to give a pass for using an out of production motor so I can say that IMSA is ignoring that for $$$ as well. And how can you complain about spirit of competition when in the GT2 class you have the most winning manufacturers? I'd like to see a poll of how many people are really complaining about the Z4. Furthermore there was a past model Z4M so I guess that counts since there was a past model gt3 4.0 right?
    Last edited by SpeedLimit?; 05-08-2014 at 10:14 AM.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    All you're doing is ignoring one major technical difference for another...so in the end you're not saying much.
    I think the only person ignoring anything is the one who can't seem to grasp the difference between racing a car that doesn't exist and claiming to produce cars based on their Motorsport programs and one who actually has used a motorsport derived engine in production cars with continual updates for just over two decades now.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Using a past chassis which porsche has stated is vastly different from the current 991 platform isn't a strong case to give a pass for using an out of production motor so I can say that IMSA is ignoring that for $$$ as well.
    No, Porsche is working within the rules just as BMW is. The difference is Porsche races and builds a GT3. BMW races and does not build a Z4M.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    And how can you complain about spirit of competition when in the GT2 class you have the most winning manufacturers? I'd like to see a poll of how many people are really complaining about the Z4. Furthermore there was a past model Z4M so I guess that counts since there was a past model gt3 4.o right?
    What do you mean by most winning manufacturers exactly?

    Do most people even care about professional racing in the first place? Plus what does the majority thinking on a topic have to do with determining if it is right or wrong? Flawed reasoning again.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Furthermore there was a past model Z4M so I guess that counts since there was a past model gt3 4.0 right?
    You might actually have a logical argument here if you could go buy a Z4M with a motor resembling what they are racing. You actually can in the case of the GT3 RS 4.0. Maybe you'll understand the point better now.

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    Mmm, read the whole damn article.

    I disagree.
    BMW makes a 4.4liter engine. As I recall there were X5's driving around with them.
    The rules never states the engine has to be in the car they bring out to race, just that it has to have an engine that is placed in a production car.
    The chassis mounts can be changed if the made more than 2500 of these chassis, which to BMW is no big deal at all. As the amount of 1 car a week, no problem at all.

    It is strange a hardtop chassis was allowed, I give you that. I do not see the regulation that forbids that in your article.

    What it comes down to is the only ones allowed to protest to that are the other teams, no one else.

    Engine choices as I read the rules are based on chassis mounts and raceability.
    That's where every team makes their choices. You state the Max engine size is 5.5L, so every team chooses the engine that best suites their goals weight/performance wise.
    BMW did that. It is stated nowhere the engine has to be produces or available for USA cars. It's just not in the rules...Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    BMW makes a 4.4liter engine. As I recall there were X5's driving around with them.
    That's an M62/N62. Completely different engine. It hasn't been in production in a long time away and wouldn't meet the rules because of that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    The rules never states the engine has to be in the car they bring out to race, just that it has to have an engine that is placed in a production car.
    Exactly as stated in the article. That is how BMW gets away with mixing and matching.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    It is strange a hardtop chassis was allowed, I give you that. I do not see the regulation that forbids that in your article.
    Because there is no regulation forbidding it. There should be. This is the problem with loopholes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    What it comes down to is the only ones allowed to protest to that are the other teams, no one else.
    I think its fair to point out that other teams are racing the right way whereas BMW fights dirty.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    You state the Max engine size is 5.5L, so every team chooses the engine that best suites their goals weight/performance wise.
    The engines are all restricted. Whether you have a 5.5 liter or 4.0 liter you will be balanced regarding the amount of air the engine can ingest.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    BMW did that. It is stated nowhere the engine has to be produces or available for USA cars. It's just not in the rules...
    Exactly. BMW using loopholes. I could write better rules in 15 minutes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That's an M62/N62. Completely different engine. It hasn't been in production in a long time away and wouldn't meet the rules because of that.
    So do they use a production engine?
    If so, it is according to regulations


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    It is strange a hardtop chassis was allowed, I give you that. I do not see the regulation that forbids that in your article.
    Because there is no regulation forbidding it. There should be. This is the problem with loopholes.
    Then this is a stroke of brilliance. Applaud BMW for making a hard top so rigid it can compete with coupe racing cars.
    I recon there are only rules for the rollcage. They must surely comply to that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The engines are all restricted. Whether you have a 5.5 liter or 4.0 liter you will be balanced regarding the amount of air the engine can ingest.
    So the engine confirms with regulations. Great!!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly. BMW using loopholes.
    I only see Win Win situations here. They comply to all regulations. Let's race!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    So do they use a production engine?
    If so, it is according to regulations
    Yes, they are using a loophole as stated.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Then this is a stroke of brilliance. Applaud BMW for making a hard top so rigid it can compete with coupe racing cars.
    I recon there are only rules for the rollcage. They must surely comply to that.
    It has barely anything in common with the street car other than a general shape so I mean it's not that surprising. Of course BMW can build a coupe stiffer than a convertible.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    So the engine confirms with regulations. Great!!
    Nobody said it didn't. What was stated was they were using loopholes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    I only see Win Win situations here. They comply to all regulations. Let's race!
    If you don't see how it's lose-lose for BMW enthusiasts I don't know what to tell you. I'm glad Corvette Racing has been whooping their ass. It's also nice to see GM spanking them in the street car scene too.

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    Great Article!

    However, they do what they are allowed to do...with the purpose of winning.

    In my opinion BMW is not to blame.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E30isKing Click here to enlarge
    Great Article!

    However, they do what they are allowed to do...with the purpose of winning.

    In my opinion BMW is not to blame.
    I do not blame BMW completely which is why I think the rules need to be updated. I wrote that if they were forced to produce the car they would have no choice but to do so unless they opted to quit.

    BMW is spending billions on 'i' and they can't stick the f'ing S65 under the hood of the Z4? Come on now.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Mmm, read the whole damn article.

    I disagree.
    BMW makes a 4.4liter engine. As I recall there were X5's driving around with them.
    The rules never states the engine has to be in the car they bring out to race, just that it has to have an engine that is placed in a production car.
    The chassis mounts can be changed if the made more than 2500 of these chassis, which to BMW is no big deal at all. As the amount of 1 car a week, no problem at all.

    It is strange a hardtop chassis was allowed, I give you that. I do not see the regulation that forbids that in your article.

    What it comes down to is the only ones allowed to protest to that are the other teams, no one else.

    Engine choices as I read the rules are based on chassis mounts and raceability.
    That's where every team makes their choices. You state the Max engine size is 5.5L, so every team chooses the engine that best suites their goals weight/performance wise.
    BMW did that. It is stated nowhere the engine has to be produces or available for USA cars. It's just not in the rules...Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Great points, but this is the vibe I get from this discussion...
    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Great points, but this is the vibe I get from this discussion...
    http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwznol3vOj1qcbjps.gif
    You're using that wrong.

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    We'll just have to chalk it up as them being quintessentially German and actually reading ze fine print!

    What's actually disappointing is that if the fine print were to change, they WOULDN'T utilize the M-Division to actually create something that was legitimately competitive.

    They'd just quit instead.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Kommodore Click here to enlarge
    What's actually disappointing is that if the fine print were to change, they WOULDN'T utilize the M-Division to actually create something that was legitimately competitive.

    They'd just quit instead.
    Exactly.

    So anyone defending this doesn't seem to get the point that the 'Motorsport' division prefers to build cars that have nothing to do with Motorsport. Change the damn meaning of the letter to something else then and don't BS.

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