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  1. #1
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    Another single kit in the works.

    I'm going to be fabbing up a top mount s372 T4 kit on my friends 335i. I am very familiar with tunerpro and EFI tuning priciples, since I have been tuning EFI systems for well over 10yrs. I have a BT cable and have read about a hidden forum on bimmerboost for the development of the open source code and XDF files. I'd love access to this information. I'll be more than willing to test different ideas and share what I learn along the way. One question I do have is: why are n54's only running roughly 10* of timing, while running boost pressures that normally would allow 20*+ of timing. I normally run over 20* until well past 10psi, on other platforms I have dyno tuned. On e85 I have ran well past 30* of timing to well past 10psi(basically NA timing values). I don't understand the low timing values used. Less than MBT would just add massive heat to the exhaust and is generally NOT GOOD FOR TURBOS. This also may be causing many of the main o2 sensor failures on ST n54's. Thank you for any insight given.

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    So many people doing singles or home builds now it is tough to keep with everything.

    Good luck to you I do not have any tuning advice to add.

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    The reason for the timing is due to a number of factors. Mainly due to turbos being pushed outside their efficiency range, generating a lot of heat, high compression ratio for a turbo motor and small bore. The last 2 factors mean MBT occurs at a lot lower timing advance. The first two mean detonation is a lot more likely to occur than other setups.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Moedigzz Click here to enlarge
    One question I do have is: why are n54's only running roughly 10* of timing, while running boost pressures that normally would allow 20*+ of timing.
    So when I got dyno'd last week and hit 593 whp, I showed my last tuner for my cobalt ss. He said the same EXACT thing as you. Verbatim, and he was explaining that not enough timing on high boost and e85/100+ octane would not even be worth putting the race gas if not using it right. I don't really know, I'm guessing its just this specific car that is like that..
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    So when I got dyno'd last week and hit 593 whp, I showed my last tuner for my cobalt ss. He said the same EXACT thing as you. Verbatim, and he was explaining that not enough timing on high boost and e85/100+ octane would not even be worth putting the race gas if not using it right. I don't really know, I'm guessing its just this specific car that is like that..
    The fuel allows for tons of advance, but different cars want to see timing at different degrees. Why I have no idea, but these seem to be particularly finicky motors. My E88 wants to see advance and 14 degrees on the dyno wasn't even close to MBT, on the other hand it wasn't happy with a lot of boost midrange. Obviously a single turbo changes the boost end of the equation, but the fundamentals are the same.

    Get it on a dyno and see where you stop making power, back off a bit, and that's that. Don't think i've ever seen an N54 push more than 15-16 degrees of advance, regardless of octane. E85 is very, very tough to knock on, which is nice.
    E88 N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Motiv HTA 3586r Tial .82AR/Motiv Port Fuel/BMR 3.5" Exhaust/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/ST Coilovers/M3 FCA + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/AA Strutbrace/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
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    Many factors for timing and can't relate with other platforms. These days more efficient engines with DI and chamber designs reduces timing needs... less timing for optimum peak pressure the better.

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    My best advice would be to forget anything you know about other platforms and tune this one based on feedback from the motor as you are tuning it. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Many factors for timing and can't relate with other platforms. These days more efficient engines with DI and chamber designs reduces timing needs... less timing for optimum peak pressure the better.
    Exactly.
    Click here to enlarge
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    I got to s372 and stopped Click here to enlarge. Looking forward to build!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Many factors for timing and can't relate with other platforms. These days more efficient engines with DI and chamber designs reduces timing needs... less timing for optimum peak pressure the better.
    This plus high stock compression.

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    Are the other platforms you tuned direct injected high compression turbo motors? If not throw it all away and just sit back and learn. Either from asking people who have lead the way on these motor ala PTF, BMS, etc, or from slowly moving forward. But taking your 10 years of tuning other platforms and trying to apply it blindly to this one is going to lead to some grenaded motors. The saying always holds true and does so even more on this motor. Boost doesn't break motors, timing does.

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    Detonation breaks engines, not boost or timing. Boost/timing/intake charge temp/and AF are the causes of detonation aka knock. The DI should only have a cooling effect in the cylinders allowing for more timing and higher A/F ratios, not the opposite. K-series honda engines are about the MOST efficient engines out there and they LOVE TIMING. They are also VERY high compression. Well lets get off this point and onto another: WHY HASN'T ANYONE REALLY GOTTEN TO KNOW THE VANOS SYSTEM AND HOW THE MAPS EFFECT CAM TIMING? I know on a single adjustable intake cam, I have seen 50-60whp differences in the midrange after making changes to the vtc settings on a 450whp peak, boosted stock k20. There is MUCH to be gained here, especially with big single setups that need to take advantage of adjustable cam timing to help spool and flatten the torque curve.

  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Moedigzz Click here to enlarge
    Detonation breaks engines, not boost or timing. Boost/timing/intake charge temp/and AF are the causes of detonation aka knock. The DI should only have a cooling effect in the cylinders allowing for more timing and higher A/F ratios, not the opposite. K-series honda engines are about the MOST efficient engines out there and they LOVE TIMING. They are also VERY high compression. Well lets get off this point and onto another: WHY HASN'T ANYONE REALLY GOTTEN TO KNOW THE VANOS SYSTEM AND HOW THE MAPS EFFECT CAM TIMING? I know on a single adjustable intake cam, I have seen 50-60whp differences in the midrange after making changes to the vtc settings on a 450whp peak, boosted stock k20. There is MUCH to be gained here, especially with big single setups that need to take advantage of adjustable cam timing to help spool and flatten the torque curve.
    Well Duh. Its just a saying and it holds true, keep timing low and throw a lot of boost at it while slowly tuning for WHP and you are much safer than asking questions such as, why cant we throw 30 degrees at it, like other platforms. You are new here and have a LOT to learn, people have gotten to know the Vanos system VERY VERY well. PTF, who I mentioned before has spent countless hours tuning the vanos tables, their newer maps with the their Vanos tables are amazing in the midrange compared to the old. But this is information they keep to themselves, as its something you learn spending time tuning. You are coming to a platform that has some of the best tuners in the game working on it, and just throwing around information like no one here knows what they are doing. Some one of the best tuners in other platforms such as AMS etc have tried their hand at tuning the N54, the results have varied. Again there is that pesky saying if it were easy everyone would be doing it. Best advice, start talking to the people who have been there and done it, tuning this platform and start off slow. Right now I can tell you think you are going to step in and change the game as if the current tuners do not understand basic tuning concepts. That couldn't be further from the truth.

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    I had typed out a long response, but I'll just keep my mouth shut. I'll be sure to post my findings once I have some dyno time with a N54.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Moedigzz Click here to enlarge
    I had typed out a long response, but I'll just keep my mouth shut. I'll be sure to post my findings once I have some dyno time with a N54.
    I think you are taking any of this as a bash. It is not that, just a little word of advice from just being around the platform for a couple years. We are not tuners, we are a hardware manufacture but we work with the tuners. Bottom line you are new to this platform, you have a lot to learn. This isn't an EVO, STI or LSX, you basically have to start over. The best tuners on this platform are few and far between because they had to do the same. We get a lot of people who talk tuning, but its no accident ALL the N54 records belong to 2-3 tuners. With no malice at all, looking forward to what you can do with it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Moedigzz Click here to enlarge
    I had typed out a long response, but I'll just keep my mouth shut. I'll be sure to post my findings once I have some dyno time with a N54.
    Looking forward to your findings Click here to enlarge

    No-one is leaving a ton of power on the table for the fun of it. There is a reason there are only a handful of people in the world that are able to consistently pull of outstanding results with the N54.
    Click here to enlarge
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    So we are going to have THREE 335s with big turbos in Tampa, DAMN! I love living down here.

    Goodluck with your build




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So many people doing singles or home builds now it is tough to keep with everything.

    Good luck to you I do not have any tuning advice to add.
    Can't say it's a bad thing, though.

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSO95 Click here to enlarge
    Can't say it's a bad thing, though.
    Oh of course hardly a bad thing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Legionofboom Click here to enlarge
    So we are going to have THREE 335s with big turbos in Tampa, DAMN! I love living down here.

    Goodluck with your build
    Thanks. You need some good power around here, just to keep with all the boosted vehicles making 500+ with basically stock builds on e85 and built vehicles running around making 800-1200whp on e85. Cant beat sub $3/gallon race gas, especially now that there are like 4-5 stations in the tampa bay area that have e85 at the pump.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Moedigzz Click here to enlarge
    Thanks. You need some good power around here, just to keep with all the boosted vehicles making 500+ with basically stock builds on e85 and built vehicles running around making 800-1200whp on e85. Cant beat sub $3/gallon race gas, especially now that there are like 4-5 stations in the tampa bay area that have e85 at the pump.
    Hah! as you know, to keep up with the cool kids on the causeway you need 800+ and either AWD or some big ol' tires. Tampa and Orlando has a whole bunch of 9 second street'ish cars.

    Pretty much Alpha 9 GTRs + if you want to be relevant.




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    Click here to enlarge

    Well with running around 15*-20* of timing @5psi w/JB4 g4 map 5, the 335i I'm playing with is already faster than it was @10psi just on the JB4. Rips the tire(lol@open diff) loose in 1st, when it used to just bearly break traction. Still learning what it likes. I think I messed up something with the throttle settings, seems the TB isn't opening all the way. IDK? maybe someone could point me in the right direction? I don't see any severe drops in timing so, I don't think it's detonating. IDK? Maybe the DME doesn't like my changes and is limiting boost? IDK? This is my first go around with a N54 or any BMW period.
    Last edited by Moedigzz; 04-28-2014 at 09:13 AM.

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Moedigzz Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    Well with running around 15*-20* of timing @5psi w/JB4 g4 map 5, the 335i I'm playing with is already faster than it was @10psi just on the JB4. Rips the tire(lol@open diff) loose in 1st, when it used to just bearly break traction. Still learning what it likes. I think I messed up something with the throttle settings, seems the TB isn't opening all the way. IDK? maybe someone could point me in the right direction? I don't see any severe drops in timing so, I don't think it's detonating. IDK? Maybe the DME doesn't like my changes and is limiting boost? IDK? This is my first go around with a N54 or any BMW period.
    No comment, someone help this guy before he blows this poor persons car up.

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    nice. Click here to enlarge Your "RECORDS" are numbers that I was putting down in 2005.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Legionofboom Click here to enlarge
    So we are going to have THREE 335s with big turbos in Tampa, DAMN! I love living down here.

    Goodluck with your build
    What three in Tampa?
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

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