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  1. #51
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    Steve,
    I agree with you on all points especially the price arguement. One does not generally find the type of machines required for this work in a local hot rod shop. Even most aerospace oems outsource this type of machining and manufacturing, because the machinery and talent to operate it can cost millions just to setup. Standard business math tells me the price has to be a lot higher for the order quantity expected.......maybe 1000 units if he is lucky.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SteveAZ Click here to enlarge
    As I said earlier...I can't comment on that...but my questions would be....

    1. There is a huge difference between .0001 and .000005...and for them to make those claims...they have to be able to measure that. Whether it be to machine to that tolerance, deposit a nitride film to that tolerance, or whatever their process is. If they can't machine to it...they then have to adjust their nitride deposition process to adjust for it....or??????

    2. Even if we assume they can machine to those tolerances...would those costs not be significantly higher for parts than the $750 advertised for the assembly?

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Tony, can you comment on fueling capability for the VTT HPFP on Pump/Petroleum fuels vs. Ethanol??
    I wont be making any comments on anything about the solution until the announcement is made, with logs etc. But our goal is to allow you to run any fuel you wish, from 100% E85, to any blend of it, to race gas, and not need any supplemental fueling. Just put the fuel in your tank and the what comes out of the injectors is enough fuel for the party.

  3. #53
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    Has anyone thought about pulling the pump and just sending it to a company that does diesel pump upgrades? Just have it bored out? Anxious to see what you have Tony.
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Has anyone thought about pulling the pump and just sending it to a company that does diesel pump upgrades? Just have it bored out? Anxious to see what you have Tony.
    Yes over a year ago I contacted and or sent the pump to just about every major diesel fuel injection player as its basically a diesel pump the answers were varied but most of them were along the lines of, thanks but no thanks, here is your pump back. To the ones who actually took a closer look at it, yeah there is no way you can feasibly get more fuel out of this pump, you are better served looking else where. We have been looking at this pump for a very long time. The thread over on N54 where people dissected it, had already been done by us some 6 months previous to that thread, and we made the same mods and tried all the same things. The options are few, we have decided on the best one.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Yes over a year ago I contacted and or sent the pump to just about every major diesel fuel injection player as its basically a diesel pump the answers were varied but most of them were along the lines of, thanks but no thanks, here is your pump back. To the ones who actually took a closer look at it, yeah there is no way you can feasibly get more fuel out of this pump, you are better served looking else where. We have been looking at this pump for a very long time. The thread over on N54 where people dissected it, had already been done by us some 6 months previous to that thread, and we made the same mods and tried all the same things. The options are few, we have decided on the best one.
    Gotcha, so is yours a rebuild or a completely different/new pump?
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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Gotcha, so is yours a rebuild or a completely different/new pump?
    Not commenting on the solution until the announcement is made.

  7. #57
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    I'm sure it's been discussed but I probably over looked it. Being that the new M3 has a similar 3.0L direct injected and sporting around the #'s we are making tuned, any chance it may be a easy donor. Considering BMW wouldn't allow the HPFP to be maxed out of the factory.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NJrep335i Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure it's been discussed but I probably over looked it. Being that the new M3 has a similar 3.0L direct injected and sporting around the #'s we are making tuned, any chance it may be a easy donor. Considering BMW wouldn't allow the HPFP to be maxed out of the factory.
    It was brought up a few months ago when the M3/M4 were first brought up with official specs, but I don't know if anyone has really looked into it.

    If I were a betting man, knowing BMW, it's probably completely different and wouldn't work but...ya never know.
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  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NJrep335i Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure it's been discussed but I probably over looked it. Being that the new M3 has a similar 3.0L direct injected and sporting around the #'s we are making tuned, any chance it may be a easy donor. Considering BMW wouldn't allow the HPFP to be maxed out of the factory.
    The N54 HPFP easily supports the M3's numbers on gasoline. That's not the problem, its when you want to add high concentrations of E85 into the mix or push above 650-700WHP on gas, that the HPFP system is coming up short.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    The N54 HPFP easily supports the M3's numbers on gasoline. That's not the problem, its when you want to add high concentrations of E85 into the mix or push above 650-700WHP on gas, that the HPFP system is coming up short.
    I don't disagree with your statement. However, since the new M3 is built to output higher #'s one might think BMW has made some improvements to the HPFP to ensure it's not at or near 100% duty cycle. This should in turn allow you to run closer/higher to the #'s you just posted.

    It may still not be a end all solution just something to cover the needs of some without using meth as a band aid.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NJrep335i Click here to enlarge
    I don't disagree with your statement. However, since the new M3 is built to output higher #'s one might think BMW has made some improvements to the HPFP to ensure it's not at or near 100% duty cycle. This should in turn allow you to run closer/higher to the #'s you just posted.

    It may still not be a end all solution just something to cover the needs of some without using meth as a band aid.
    I highly doubt BMW took running E85 into play when deciding which pump to use and where its limits would be. Look how insanely tight they are about DME encrypting so the aftermarket cannot crack them and tune the cars, why would they give any thought to making a HPFP that could support aftermarket tuning. The current pump is more than capable of handling the power of the M3 and a lot more on pump gas, and they have switched to a cam driven style pump which is more friendly to aftermarket designs. What this tells me is, the new M3 once cracked and tuned will not have to deal with the same HPFP bs as the N54 because the the pump will be easier to upgrade, but an M# pump on an N54 seems likes a pretty expensive experiment that would likely net no results for high E85 concentrations or 700WHP applications.

  12. #62
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    Not that this is proof, like the article says it could have just been a mistake but... :http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/11/27/20...h-e85-ethanol/

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    Not that this is proof, like the article says it could have just been a mistake but... :http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/11/27/20...h-e85-ethanol/

    That't it!!! Our troubles are over, BMW has listened and released this pump for Earlier N54 models... J/K

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aerotest Click here to enlarge
    Maybe automotive shops, but .0001 is used in the aerospace industry all the time and not just for precision fit items.
    To the tenth is definitely not used in aerospace industry all the time outside of precision fit items. Usually to the thousandth, and we have trouble getting vendors to hold it to that on a regular basis. Shafts/blades/etc are built/measured to smaller tolerances but those are definitely precision fit items. Did you put an extra zero in, or, since your name is Aerotest, do you test a small selection of very precisely machined parts? I work on APU's mostly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    To the tenth is definitely not used in aerospace industry all the time outside of precision fit items. Usually to the thousandth, and we have trouble getting vendors to hold it to that on a regular basis. Shafts/blades/etc are built/measured to smaller tolerances but those are definitely precision fit items. Did you put an extra zero in, or, since your name is Aerotest, do you test a small selection of very precisely machined parts? I work on APU's mostly.
    It depends where youre looking, but a quick look at my APUs here show splines, blades, shafts, pump components held to 0.0001 and greater, and tight tolerances for straightness and flatness.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    It depends where youre looking, but a quick look at my APUs here show splines, blades, shafts, pump components held to 0.0001 and greater, and tight tolerances for straightness and flatness.
    Which are all things defined as precision fit items.... which I said....

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    Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    Which are all things defined as precision fit items.... which I said....
    I'm with you on this one. I work in a Design Integration group for a large jet engine company. In my position I see drawings for parts throughout the entire engine as well as the aircraft pylon and while I do see tolerances in the tenth of a thousandth (.xxxx) range regularly they are far from common. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of features are dimensioned to three places.

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    Machining to the tenth is a serious pain in the balls. Even on some of our engine shafts we hold to +/- 0.00015, which is 3 tenths range... easy to write, hard to make. A sheet of paper is commonly 0.002-0.003" thick. So holding metal to 1/10th of the sheet of paper thickness.... yeah. Not common. Takes a skilled operator to even verify.

    As an aside, when working for the Navy I saw a dude electroplate a 25" diameter pump casing bore and he held the dimensions to +0.000/-0.001", by hand. Yep, by hand. THAT's a skill. Dude was a classic super grumpy crusty old man.

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    Buy a second hpfp and run off accessory belt. Pipe output into output of first pump before fuel metering solenoid. gg

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    If by "metering solenoid" you mean the 6 injectors......suuuuurrrrrreeee.....it's so simple...why did nobody think of that....pfffff....
    @VargasTurboTech...where were you on that one?....duh!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jewber Click here to enlarge
    Buy a second hpfp and run off accessory belt. Pipe output into output of first pump before fuel metering solenoid. gg
    My friend I truly wish it were this easy. You are missing about 50 steps in the middle of that. How do you plan to spin the pump with the belt, secure the pump so its perfectly inline with the rest of the acessories so it doesn't throw belts, just to name a few. Ok so you get it mounted, now you want to push 2500 psi plus into the inlet designed to meter 70-100? Also running a pump inline would multiply pressure, we already know the DME doesn't like big pressure differentials, next the fuel control solenoid uses simple orings to seal itself from low pressure fuel passing to the different chambers, would love to see an O-ring that can hold back 2500+ PSI. Now you have zero control over HPFP. 4000 PSI at all times would make the DME very happy I'm sure, not to mention prob blow out the injectors. Your idea isn't a bad one in theory(except for a few fundemental flaws), but there is that pesky saying again. If it were easy it would be done already.

    Edit: To be clear, your idea isn't flawed its actually very right on. Just the gross over simplification is impossible to ignore.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 04-16-2014 at 07:46 PM.

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jewber Click here to enlarge
    Buy a second hpfp and run off accessory belt. Pipe output into output of first pump before fuel metering solenoid. gg
    You're smarter than I thought.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I highly doubt BMW took running E85 into play when deciding which pump to use and where its limits would be. Look how insanely tight they are about DME encrypting so the aftermarket cannot crack them and tune the cars, why would they give any thought to making a HPFP that could support aftermarket tuning. The current pump is more than capable of handling the power of the M3 and a lot more on pump gas, and they have switched to a cam driven style pump which is more friendly to aftermarket designs. What this tells me is, the new M3 once cracked and tuned will not have to deal with the same HPFP bs as the N54 because the the pump will be easier to upgrade, but an M# pump on an N54 seems likes a pretty expensive experiment that would likely net no results for high E85 concentrations or 700WHP applications.
    So why do you think there seem to be more manufacturers going to a cam driven HPFP? I learned there was one on the new C7 so with a new cam you can get a crazy amount of fuel out of it.

  25. #75
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nbrigdan Click here to enlarge
    So why do you think there seem to be more manufacturers going to a cam driven HPFP? I learned there was one on the new C7 so with a new cam you can get a crazy amount of fuel out of it.
    Does anyone have an explanation or diagram of the cam driven design?
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