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  1. #26
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    that's insane never seen anything with that kind of tolerance .

  2. #27
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    I'm calling BS on that tight of clearance for a fuel pump.
    Why? you would have to have INSANE filtration before the pump.
    Not many mass production systems could hold that tight of tolerance when on a large platform as a vehicle.
    I mean the thickness of a human hair is 0.004 give or take.... and you want to tell me it has a tolerance of .0001?
    That is (am i saying this right?) almost 40 times thinner than a hair?
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    I'm calling BS on that tight of clearance for a fuel pump.
    Why? you would have to have INSANE filtration before the pump.
    Not many mass production systems could hold that tight of tolerance when on a large platform as a vehicle.
    I mean the thickness of a human hair is 0.004 give or take.... and you want to tell me it has a tolerance of .0001?
    That is (am i saying this right?) almost 40 times thinner than a hair?

    Taken from HPA's site on their HPFP upgrade.
    "To achieve this performance, the size of the piston has been increased, and the sleeve to piston fitment is within a .000005 inch tolerance. Each pump uses only the finest steel and nitride coating to ensure durability and longevity, while providing an ultra-smooth finish that dramatically reduces friction."

    According to hpa theirs is tighter clearance.

  4. #29
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    most machine shops will never EVER even take a job that requires a spec of .0001 tolerance.
    Sure, specific machine shops *may* be able to knock out 1 or 2, but not a run or a batch with .0001+/-
    Then, how would one measure that accurately? Most measuring devices wont even measure that accurately and consistently.
    I mean, you would have a varience in nitrade coating that would ruin a .000005 tolerance, since nitrade coating in it's self is .0002 to .00004 thick depending on application..... that is one micron thick.

    now, they are saying (count this out) .0 0 0 0 0 5 tolerance.
    Nitrade coating is .0 0 0 2 to .0 0 0 0 4.....


    perspective:
    .0001 is 1/3rd of ONE red blood cell.
    .000005 is 1/60th the length of ONE red blood cell.
    we need to start measuring with light refractory equipment and comparing their tolerance to precision gage blocks- what the machining industry uses to measure/gage their OWN devices and measuring equipment....

    simple temperature swings of just 10-20 degrees will make .000005 disappear, no problem.
    hell, temp swings of 10-20 degrees will knock out .0001!


    I mean, prove me wrong and I'll take it all back with a statement of apology lol
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  5. #30
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    Contact HPA and call them liars. They are more established and trusted than you. I am no machinist or anything. I just and reiterating what I know from the 2 top dogs in the VW world.

  6. #31
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    those tolerancew to my understanding never see fuel. I could be wrong, but its like the BMW pump, the head and rotor never seen fuel they are in a sealed environment with a lifetime oil.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    Contact HPA and call them liars. They are more established and trusted than you. I am no machinist or anything. I just and reiterating what I know from the 2 top dogs in the VW world.

    And while I have a hard time they can hold that tolerance, I have no dog in that fight- just trying to put that type of tolerance into perspective.
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  8. #33
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    0.000005" is 127nm, or 0.127 micron. I worked in a lab for a few years, this is actually below the diffraction limit for optical microscopy. You can see down to around 200nm resolution, but you don't want to. Something with this tight of specs would have to be visualized with election microscopy to check specs. You're nearly to what's considered nanoparticle size in medicine :-)

    Not impossible I'm sure, the processor in my phone has 28nm transistors, but there's some more perspective on just how tight the claimed tolerances are.

  9. #34
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    thanks, now I'm googling at the size of transistors and whatnot lol Click here to enlarge
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    Laugh all you want. You clearly have zero knowledge of the vw hpfp. The tolerance for the piston clearance on the vw hpfp is .0001. One spec of dust or dirt ruins a pump. Some cases its toast in a couple hundred miles, others it took a couple thousand. I believe APR still has one of the only hpfp test benches in the US that isn't owned by a car manufacturer. APR assembles them in a dust and dirt free environment. I can reference hundreds of threads of failed pumps from people who tried to save money and rebuild them at home with the autotech or other brand rebuilds.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    Taken from HPA's site on their HPFP upgrade.
    "To achieve this performance, the size of the piston has been increased, and the sleeve to piston fitment is within a .000005 inch tolerance. Each pump uses only the finest steel and nitride coating to ensure durability and longevity, while providing an ultra-smooth finish that dramatically reduces friction."

    According to hpa theirs is tighter clearance.
    So let me get this straight...you tell me I don't know what the hell I'm talking about and your source is some marketing material from a website?

    I work in a fab...guess what I work on....microscopes, electron microscopes, thin film measurement tools...blah blah blah....

    However, I am not a machinist but I would find it virtually impossible to believe that they can machine anything to those tolerances. Sputter or deposit a film that thick...sure...but now you're talking about technologies that are far more complex than "assembling them in a cleanroom".

    And then as mentioned temperature variation is HUGE!

    As a comparison, Intel's current technology is 22 nanometer....you want to tell me some HPFP company can come even close to that? Do you have any idea how much the equipment costs just to measure dimensions down to those kinds of specs, the environment they require and the maintenance costs associated with that?

    I don't come cheapClick here to enlarge

  11. #36
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I'm waiting to see logs before I pass my judgement

  12. #37
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    Logs from who? HPFPupgrade? Better get out your pillow its prob gonna be a while. We already have logs for our solution. Once everything is throughly tested to our satisfaction and we are sure the fuel system is up to the task of repeated abuse, we will make the announcement. Not before, hopefully it won't be too much longer.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Logs from who? HPFPupgrade? Better get out your pillow its prob gonna be a while. We already have logs for our solution. Once everything is throughly tested to our satisfaction and we are sure the fuel system is up to the task of repeated abuse, we will make the announcement. Not before, hopefully it won't be too much longer.
    I've seen the logs and this is very promising.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SteveAZ Click here to enlarge
    I work in a fab...guess what I work on....microscopes, electron microscopes, thin film measurement tools...blah blah blah....

    However, I am not a machinist but I would find it virtually impossible to believe that they can machine anything to those tolerances. Sputter or deposit a film that thick...sure...but now you're talking about technologies that are far more complex than "assembling them in a cleanroom".

    And then as mentioned temperature variation is HUGE!

    As a comparison, Intel's current technology is 22 nanometer....you want to tell me some HPFP company can come even close to that? Do you have any idea how much the equipment costs just to measure dimensions down to those kinds of specs, the environment they require and the maintenance costs associated with that?
    i was referring to your knowledge of the bosch/vw fsi hpfp. Not your knowledge of machining or measuring.

    APR is not just a HPFP company. They have a multi million dollar facility and the largest vw/Audi tuner by far. They build inconel manifolds (vtt can attest to costs associated with that). They have direct ties with VWAG. They pioneered a lot of the tuning and mods for the newer VWAG cars.

    Well maybe you can name the machine they use.

    "To give an idea of the tolerances involved, the final surface finish on the piston inside the fuel pump is so critical that it can be damaged by touching them with bare hands. The tolerances between the piston and the new barrel the piston rides in can only be measured by a multi-million dollar machine which uses air volumes to measure the part clearances to within microscopic levels."

    A simple online search shows multiple references to the tolerances bosch built these pumps to. I have a cousin who is an engineer at one of the bosch facilities in Michigan. I can ask and see if he can find the tolerance they build the piston to.


    The initial reason they recalled a lot of the early FSI pumps was directly associated with a batch/version that didnt meet those specs and the piston was seizing inside the body causing cam damage.

  15. #40
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    Okay...not really wanting to debate a bunch of marketing hype or VW applications for that fact. I believe they are using a plunger style pump and that doesn't have any relevance in this discussion other than you using it as an example to demonstrate their technological prowess. Now if you want to compare it to the newer (2012+) hpfp's used in the n55 applications..that may have some relevance...but that isn't what we're talking about in this thread,

    This HPFP is not a plunger style pump...the pistons aren't exposed to fuel, and the sealing surface between the oil and fuel is static...not dynamic.

    Cheers Click here to enlarge

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    We already have logs for our solution. Once everything is throughly tested to our satisfaction and we are sure the fuel system is up to the task of repeated abuse, we will make the announcement. Not before, hopefully it won't be too much longer.
    Tony, can you comment on fueling capability for the VTT HPFP on Pump/Petroleum fuels vs. Ethanol??
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  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SteveAZ Click here to enlarge
    Okay...not really wanting to debate a bunch of marketing hype or VW applications for that fact. I believe they are using a plunger style pump and that doesn't have any relevance in this discussion other than you using it as an example to demonstrate their technological prowess. Now if you want to compare it to the newer (2012+) hpfp's used in the n55 applications..that may have some relevance...but that isn't what we're talking about in this thread,

    This HPFP is not a plunger style pump...the pistons aren't exposed to fuel, and the sealing surface between the oil and fuel is static...not dynamic.

    Cheers Click here to enlarge

    You brought this conversation to the level it is. My first post was referencing the quality I products the op posted about. I have direct friends who have been burned for their poor products on the Mazda platform. I would expect similar problems or just as poor quality on the n54 pumps. You questioned my integrity and started the argument. I would have brushed it off but your arrogance and bashing my intelligence regarding this made me want to prove you wrong.

    I had zero intention of derailing the thread.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    You brought this conversation to the level it is. My first post was referencing the quality I products the op posted about. I have direct friends who have been burned for their poor products on the Mazda platform. I would expect similar problems or just as poor quality on the n54 pumps. You questioned my integrity and started the argument. I would have brushed it off but your arrogance and bashing my intelligence regarding this made me want to prove you wrong.

    I had zero intention of derailing the thread.

    WHAT? Are you serious? How is that? A smiley face laughing and asking for clarification is questioning your integrity?

    Back up a minute...first of all this isn't personal by any stretch of the imagination.

    Second...I was just getting ready to answer a couple of your questions because I ran out of time on that post. (had to go to work)

    Third...in some respects I think we're arguing the same point.

    On HPFPupgrades site it says...

    "Using inferior components on this critical part can lead to many problems. We only use certified H13 tool steel for our pumps, the final finish of the sleeve to piston surface is measured in RA then a final check is done in RZ (mirror like finish). This process allows for final fitment that goes to the .000005 of an inch. All our pump internals are nitride treated then cooled in a nitrogen vacuum chamber."

    I don't believe for a second these guys have the technology or the means to back this statement up. Is that not who this thread is about?

    Fourth, you think they can do all that with multi-million dollar equipment and sell the units for $750 a piece?


    Fifth, as to your question about measuring volume with air...first of all that isn't going to tell you anything about uniformity which I would believe would be CRITICAL! However, I honestly don't have any experience with that because frankly it seems very low tech for what are otherwise incredibly tight specs. When we measure particles, film thicknesses, and tolerances that tight...we do it with lasers or electron beams under VERY high vacuum and extremely tightly controlled environments.

    So...please don't consider this a personal attack...IT IS NOT...it is merely a discussion and I found it funny that a company (which you quoted) made such claims. I think they may be taking some specs and using some artistic liberties in how they present them...just my opinion....

    Kapeesh?

  19. #44
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    Maybe automotive shops, but .0001 is used in the aerospace industry all the time and not just for precision fit items.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    Contact HPA and call them liars. They are more established and trusted than you. I am no machinist or anything. I just and reiterating what I know from the 2 top dogs in the VW world.
    Eehhhhhhhhhhhh. There were huge debates over whether their stuff was what they said it was, or just Chinese knock offs.


    when it comes to the TSI ea888 engine, try certainly are not a big dog.

  21. #46
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    Fuel pumps sure get some panites bunched.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aerotest Click here to enlarge
    Maybe automotive shops, but .0001 is used in the aerospace industry all the time and not just for precision fit items.
    As I said earlier...I can't comment on that...but my questions would be....

    1. There is a huge difference between .0001 and .000005...and for them to make those claims...they have to be able to measure that. Whether it be to machine to that tolerance, deposit a nitride film to that tolerance, or whatever their process is. If they can't machine to it...they then have to adjust their nitride deposition process to adjust for it....or??????

    2. Even if we assume they can machine to those tolerances...would those costs not be significantly higher for parts than the $750 advertised for the assembly?

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    I paid $1650 (minus $450 core charge) for an APR HPFP when I had my Audi.

  24. #49
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    I'll believe the data not some sales rep publication that misread/misquoted/misunderstood what the implications of 6 decimal places with those units meant. Because it's just silly. No car company would make a moving part require those tolerances, over thousands of miles they would all fail.

    Yeah ok so that's kinda exactly what happens but no lol. Just no.

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    I like boobies.
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