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  1. #1
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    anyones using meth with out progressive spray ?

    Someone told me that there's no point of using progressive spray on our cars , anyone is running with out progressive spray ? any comments on what you think is better ?Click here to enlarge lol

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    bump for an answer

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    Progressive spray on this car is useless. I ran both progressive and none. I stayed with none progressive set to full spray at 7-8 psi

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    Laloosh, how much do you spray? I'm guessing progressive would only be beneficial if you were spraying enough to cause weak spark/misfire and wanted to start at a lower psi.

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    Do10....tried as high as do12. No issues.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Do10....tried as high as do12. No issues.
    Thanks! I'm guessing the DO10 would be comparable with the CM10? What psi is your pump at?

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    progressive is the best option. adds a failsafe to it, and if you dont go WOT but hit some boost, ie 8-9-10 psi and not intentionally trying to spray , it will save you from flowing too much.. for an all out race, no dont need progressive for that one instance, but you dont drive WOT everytime you drive unless your a real F&F driver Click here to enlarge

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    Progressive is NOT the best option. The only people who recommend it are the people who don't know any better and the people who make money from selling that option. I suggest trying a none progressive set up, you will be surprised that will notice ZERO difference.

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    i did have a basic kit, and when not WOT i would get backfires and hiccups from too much meth and not enough throttle. besides that, i have seen better/smoother timing and less lag, not bog Click here to enlarge once i went to a progressive kit. I dont recall whether all that was on stock or RB turbo's though

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i did have a basic kit, and when not WOT i would get backfires and hiccups from too much meth and not enough throttle. besides that, i have seen better/smoother timing and less lag, not bog Click here to enlarge once i went to a progressive kit. I dont recall whether all that was on stock or RB turbo's though
    You would get backfires from too much meth and not enough throttle? That does not even make any sense. I am pretty sure 99.9 percent of your problems simply went away when you actually figured out your CM meth kit wasnt spraying right and your turbos were shot over and over again. Trust me on this, progressive useless on this car. Like stated Ive run a progressive set up on this car that makes you "adjustable" progressive set up look like a toy. 30x30 boost vs rpm tables that control the pump voltage......with all that, a direct on off switch does the same job with zero negatives

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    so what happens when say, you give some throttle, reach 8-9psi, basic kit set to flow @ 7 psi/100%, and then let off the throttle and get a stutter/backfire/shakes? that to me sounds like too much meth went in

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so what happens when say, you give some throttle, reach 8-9psi, basic kit set to flow @ 7 psi/100%, and then let off the throttle and get a stutter/backfire/shakes? that to me sounds like too much meth went in
    What happens? Can't tell you. Btwn myself/jpslick/themyst, none of us backfire/shake/stutter. The ecu has a/f targets, if those targets are not reach or too rich, the ecu will react and pull/add fuel untill they are reached. Back when I had a jb3, I would backfire as well, maybe its tune related. I never backfire on the procede or the standback...so maybe ask there what hes doing different/wrong?

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    since dialing in the meth, i dont stutter either. does it not sounds completely possible, that when not at WOT for the whole time, that too much meth/water would be injected and cause a stutter?
    of course, another variable is i dont recall the % mix i was running, and i know how you feel about that.

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    Like I stated before, I don't know of anyone who runs a boost switch that stutters. Some, including me use to backfire, btwn high rpm shifts on a jb3, but not on other tunes. It could of been your mix. The one and only time JPs car stutters is when I $#@!ed up while trouble shooting his meth kit.

    We were trying to dial in the piece of $#@! CM boost switch with a bike pump....i 4got to disconnect the power and sprayed meth for a good 5-6 seconds before I realized wtf the noise was. I quickly unplugged it, we waited about two min and he fired it up, stuttered a little, but idled fine. Went for a ride and the first time he floored it the car took off, bucked and backfired like a canon. There is noway you can get that much meth flow at part throttle if your boost switch is set 7-8psi or higher. Its actually pretty hard to maintain 7-8psi to begin with.

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    it didnt happen often, just a few times when goosing it to quickly accelerate onto/off of on ramps/merge with traffic ect..

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    A non progressive spray doesn't make any sense. You're supposed to be injecting it to supplement y our fueling. Do you use the same amount of fuel at 3000 RPM as you do 7000 RPM?

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    ^exactly

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    exactly? You guy do realise this is based off boost not rpm right? Think a little, this car can make full boost at 2k rpm, let alone 3k

    Every see the a/f ratio, WHICH HAS SET TARGETS (for the 4th time this week) at low rpms?

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    Yes, I do realize that... that's worse.

    Here's why.

    If you take your fuel curve, you never need as much fuel at 15 psi at 4000 RPM as you do at 15 psi at 5200 RPM where your torque peak crosses. However, because you have a NON progressive setup, its going to be spraying the same amount of methanol/water at at 4000 RPM as it would 5200, which is wrong.

    If you sprayed your fuel injectors like that your motor would fail. A proper water/methanol injection system does not mirror your boost curve, it mirrors your injector duty. How much power your engine is making is directly relative to how much fuel it is consuming (so long as its tuned and not just dumping fuel at random points). Spraying it at 2000 RPM is fine, but you dont want to spray the same amount at 3K that you do 5200 RPM - it makes no sense. But to your system 2K (if thats where you make max boost at) and 5000 RPM are the same thing. Methanol is supposed to be injected in a ratio to be effective. Whats going to happen is at 2000 RPM your fuel demands are low and your methanol concentration in relation to fuel will be high. However, as your RPMs and thus torque/horsepower go up (and subsequently your fuel demand goes up too) your system is spraying the same fixed amount since its pressure referenced. That means that the more power your car makes, the lower the methanol concentration is over your total fueling. Completely backwards and ineffective.

    Systems like Aquamist HFS-5 and 6 use injector duty cycle to trigger methanol spraying. If your car is set to start spraying at X% duty cycle, then it'll start whenever the fueling reaches a certain point of necessity. Then, since it mirrors the fuel injector duty and is jetted via nozzles to match total fuel flow... it is linear 15 - 20% concentration of methanol spray : total gasoline spray... throughout the entire rev range (and thus power range)!

    This rep system is retarded - you gave me negative feedback because I know how fuel works. Congrats.

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    What you failt to realise is that all the people talking about a progressive set up have it set up so it spray based on boost. Rpm this not matter. If they are hitting 16psi at 3k, they are at full spray either way. The only issues some guys are challenging is part throttle stuff.

    No I have you negative feedback because your whole paragraph and theory is useless since you have no idea how the current progressive systems work. People generally spray 25 percent at 8psi and 100 percent at 12 psi. RPM does not matter, once boost reaches 12psi, they are spraying the same amount no matter what rpm they are at.

    EITHER WAY, with this car, it doesnt even matter. Do you even have meth on your n54? I am going to go with NO
    you also missed the point where the ecu ADJUSTS the af ratio to meets its target based on meth flow, this happens almost instantly. Learn how the ecu works before you challenge basic knowledge

    put meth on the car and go dyno. I have dynos with both progressive, none progressive, a standback, a juicebox, and a procede. Would like me to waste my time and show you that it makes no difference on this car? I also have one of the fastest trapping 6mt cars for my mods, so take whatever you read, apply it first, and then speak.

    Another FLAW with your theory is that, if you are constantly adjusting you pump to meet xx percentage of meth to fuel. GOOD LUCK figuring that out though. You will need one HELL of a nozzle to meet fueling percentage demands at peak tq and high up in the rpm band. This mean that you will have to crank the pump WAY down, meaning lowering the pressure to keep the same percentage down low. As you lower the pressure, your atomization goes to $#@! and because pretty much useless.
    Last edited by Laloosh; 10-25-2010 at 10:31 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    What you failt to realise is that all the people talking about a progressive set up have it set up so it spray based on boost. Rpm this not matter. If they are hitting 16psi at 3k, they are at full spray either way. The only issues some guys are challenging is part throttle stuff.

    No I have you negative feedback because your whole paragraph and theory is useless since you have no idea how the current progressive systems work. People generally spray 25 percent at 8psi and 100 percent at 12 psi. RPM does not matter, once boost reaches 12psi, they are spraying the same amount no matter what rpm they are at.

    EITHER WAY, with this car, it doesnt even matter. Do you even have meth on your n54? I am going to go with NO
    you also missed the point where the ecu ADJUSTS the af ratio to meets its target based on meth flow, this happens almost instantly. Learn how the ecu works before you challenge basic knowledge

    Did you bother to read at all? Spraying by boost means jack $#@!. My car makes 610 horsepower at 5000 RPM at 28 psi. It makes 685 hp at 6900 RPM at 28 psi. You're telling me that I should spray the same amount of methanol at both HP figures? You make no sense.

    And no, you gave me negative rep because you don't understand what you're talking about. Yes, I do have methanol on my car, and yes it is a PROPER setup. I have had a Snow Stage 2 kit and I now have an Aquamist HFS-6. I would never consider spraying methanol based on pressure ever again. Its a waste of time.

    RPM does matter - I know its based on boost, I explained that. But you make different power at 3000 RPM at 12 psi than you do at 5000 at 12 psi... yet your system is spraying the same amount of boost. Sound like a good idea? If so... go for it lol.

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    Read my updated post. How bout answering my questions?
    Do you meth on the n54 and this ecu? Do yo have ANY experience with it on this car?

    It sounds like a great Idea.

    How does breaking 420 with pretty much no mods sound?
    How bout trapping 117?
    How bout the people who are asking about progressive meth, are using boost based controllers so your point is moot to begin with. How exactly did you wire your HF6 to read injectory duty cycle?

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    You can get away with a non-progressive setup but wind up either using too much meth (and risk bogging the motor) or too little under heavy part throttle. We've found spraying off boost works well in this application as the fueling system is closed loop. So you spray more than you need down low but the IPW is reduced quickly to keep the air/fuel consistant. But with our upcoming G4 we'll be switching to full meth mapping on the piggyback side

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    Too little under heavy part thorttle? How is that even possible? running up to 7psi part throttle, I don't need any meth based on logs. once 7 is reach its on.


    I am still curiou sto how he wired his system to reach a percentage of the injector duty cycle. lol
    Even with that approach the atomization down low is totally $#@!ed cause pump pressure is $#@! if he wants to maintain the same percentage up top. You need a big nozzle for that....or hes not making $#@! for power and can get away with it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Too little under heavy part thorttle? How is that even possible? running up to 7psi part throttle, I don't need any meth based on logs. once 7 is reach its on.


    I am still curiou sto how he wired his system to reach a percentage of the injector duty cycle. lol
    Even with that approach the atomization down low is totally $#@!ed cause pump pressure is $#@! if he wants to maintain the same percentage up top. You need a big nozzle for that....or hes not making $#@! for power and can get away with it.
    You're clueless. I give up. I run an HFS-6 system which runs a constant 160 psi. None of this slowing the pump down bull$#@!. It runs 160 constant pressure and pulses a valve at the nozzles just a like a fuel injector. Go on, enjoy your meth kit. I make a $#@! ton more power than you do, and on pump fuel using my real water:meth kit. Not a progressive boost setup that doesn't make sense.

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