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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why don't you tell us all why this cylinder coating means pistons can't be re-used and try to use something other than 'I worked blah blah blah blah blah years doing blah blah blah'
    So if you dont know if the pistons are the same then why would you write in this thread that if the bore and strokes are the same then the rods, pistons and crank are all the same? All im asking is that you simply say that you are speculating when you make these threads. As for the torque dropping off, even if they used all the same internals as you stated the turbo plumbing, turbos, boost, cooling are all different from the n55. For example a stock n54 dynos this:

    http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432677

    Now with bolt-ons, different turbo plumbing, different cooling, yet same internals the n54 dynos this:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...693-wheel-dyno

    So a completely different graph and torque drop off due to the bolt-ons and different plumbing resulting in better flow. So unless the s55 uses the same engine, with the same plumbing, boost, head, etc then the torque drop off would be the same but this is not the case making your speculation incorrect once again

  2. #52
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    Large, comfy convertibles are going to be heavy. This thing is mean looking and it will sounds and drive great. It's a GT car in convertible trim; not a track car. The next M4 will be even lighter - BMW is now working to make all their cars CFRP-chassis - eventually. Just being seen first on the i models. It won't be long. I would guess the next gen M3/M4 with have CFRP unibodies/chassis/whatever you want to call them. The regulations in Europe are going to force all cars to become lighter IMHO. BMW is truly leading the way on mass-produced CFRP cars. No one is close. BMW is in-between a massive shift in technology.

    The main problem is cars keep getting larger...and so do humans. If I park my e92 next to my 308, it literally looks like an SUV. The M4 is even larger than the E92 M3.

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yeah I can't comprehend it:



    If you are such an expert can't they be the same pistons but with a coating as in the E92 M3? Do you know for sure what they are?

    So you're telling me I should ignore BMW precedent and not point out they have shared pistons and rods? You were the only one to state something definitively as fact and get it wrong here so why are you continuing? Do you like seeing yourself type? Do you have a point to make?

    I directly state I don't know about the pistons or rods but since you continue to ignore plain English I don't know what else to do you for you at this point.
    My point is that you dont know what they will be, neither do I and since its a different block the whole s63/n63 sharing pistons, etc. doesn't apply. Do a little research, iron heat transfer coefficients are not the same as aluminum. The block has a completely different amount of metal and different heat transfer rates which in itself requires a redesign of combustion chambers along with pistons. You do directly state you dont know about the pistons and rods, just not in this thread instead you say that if the bore and stroke are the same then the internals are too which I am saying you dont have nearly enough information to deduce that so why would you?

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Vettes drive around the whole thing in 4th gear. Amazing machines; but that is not much fun to me.
    I don't know why they sit in 4th gear and you certainly don't have to.

    The Vette is lighter and handles very well. I don't see how it wouldn't be more fun than this.
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  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    So if you dont know if the pistons are the same then why would you write in this thread that if the bore and strokes are the same then the rods, pistons and crank are all the same?
    Because BMW is likely cutting costs the same way they did on the N63 which you clearly missed. I don't know why it isn't clicking.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    All im asking is that you simply say that you are speculating when you make these threads.
    It's clearly implied with the phrasing and at no point do I state they are using the same pistons. My only comment on the pistons is that I don't know which I don't and neither do you. I leave the possibility there because clearly it is a possibility.

    Why you haven't answered my question regarding the piston coating allowing the same pistons to be used I have no clue. You state the pistons have to be different and I don't see any physical reason why they have to be. Your knowledge isn't impressing me.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    As for the torque dropping off, even if they used all the same internals as you stated the turbo plumbing, turbos, boost, cooling are all different from the n55.
    The torque dropping off would be due to the N55 bore stroke ratio which is an undersquare design. The N55 starts to drop of fairly hard versus say an S65 oversquare design that is designed to rev. If the N55 stroke is retained that means at a higher redline the piston speeds will also be higher. Shouldn't you know this with all your 'experience' you claim to have?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    So unless the s55 uses the same engine, with the same plumbing, boost, head, etc then the torque drop off would be the same but this is not the case making your speculation incorrect once again
    What you're doing is speculating here and dreaming. You have no dyno for the motor. I certainly hope the torque holds better to redline than it does in the current turbo sixes which I find underwhelming.

    I really don't see what you take offense with and your claims have all been incorrect as you didn't even know the S63TU and N63TU shared pistons which was the basis for my point. The potential for part sharing increases if the N55's bore and stroke is retained. That's the whole freaking point. I'm not sure why you aren't understanding that and how else it would need to be worded for you to get it. I have explained this multiple times to you so if it doesn't click now it probably never will.
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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Do a little research, iron heat transfer coefficients are not the same as aluminum. The block has a completely different amount of metal and different heat transfer rates which in itself requires a redesign of combustion chambers along with pistons.
    What iron are you referring to? The block is aluminum. I don't see anything indicating any different material than the N55 only that it is a closed deck design so what are you talking about?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    You do directly state you dont know about the pistons and rods, just not in this thread instead you say that if the bore and stroke are the same then the internals are too which I am saying you dont have nearly enough information to deduce that so why would you?
    I have more than enough information to deduce that the potential for that is there which is why it is mentioned. You seem to be drawing a different conclusion than what I intended and since I wrote the piece I think I know what I intended which is why I stated it based on the precedent set which you were not familiar with. If you had dome some research you would be.
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  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know why they sit in 4th gear and you certainly don't have to.

    The Vette is lighter and handles very well. I don't see how it wouldn't be more fun than this.
    It has so much torque that they do not need to shift. I use 3rd and 4th, sometimes 5th (if flying on straight); sometimes 2nd (if in traffic).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What iron are you referring to? The block is aluminum. I don't see anything indicating any different material than the N55 only that it is a closed deck design so what are you talking about?



    I have more than enough information to deduce that the potential for that is there which is why it is mentioned. You seem to be drawing a different conclusion than what I intended and since I wrote the piece I think I know what I intended which is why I stated it based on the precedent set which you were not familiar with. If you had dome some research you would be.
    Seriously? the n55 has cast in iron sleeves the s55 does not, Im not sure how you're not understanding this.

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Because BMW is likely cutting costs the same way they did on the N63 which you clearly missed. I don't know why it isn't clicking.



    It's clearly implied with the phrasing and at no point do I state they are using the same pistons. My only comment on the pistons is that I don't know which I don't and neither do you. I leave the possibility there because clearly it is a possibility.

    Why you haven't answered my question regarding the piston coating allowing the same pistons to be used I have no clue. You state the pistons have to be different and I don't see any physical reason why they have to be. Your knowledge isn't impressing me.



    The torque dropping off would be due to the N55 bore stroke ratio which is an undersquare design. The N55 starts to drop of fairly hard versus say an S65 oversquare design that is designed to rev. If the N55 stroke is retained that means at a higher redline the piston speeds will also be higher. Shouldn't you know this with all your 'experience' you claim to have?



    What you're doing is speculating here and dreaming. You have no dyno for the motor. I certainly hope the torque holds better to redline than it does in the current turbo sixes which I find underwhelming.

    I really don't see what you take offense with and your claims have all been incorrect as you didn't even know the S63TU and N63TU shared pistons which was the basis for my point. The potential for part sharing increases if the N55's bore and stroke is retained. That's the whole freaking point. I'm not sure why you aren't understanding that and how else it would need to be worded for you to get it. I have explained this multiple times to you so if it doesn't click now it probably never will.
    While bore and stroke influence torque drop off, I just posted two dynos with the same internals and undersquare design yet one has the torque beginning to drop at 4-4.5 and the other starts dropping at 6. Turbo plumbing and the head has a massive influence on torque drop off which is why i am saying your speculation of retaining the same torque drop off is meaningless since it is based off of them sharing the same bottom end internals, yet does not acknowledge the increase in flow.

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Seriously? the n55 has cast in iron sleeves the s55 does not, Im not sure how you're not understanding this.
    Right, the S55 doesn't so would you mind explaining to me why it is a physical impossibility for the coating to not work with the piston material considering that the S65 pistons are coated to work with cylinder liners?
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  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    While bore and stroke influence torque drop off, I just posted two dynos with the same internals and undersquare design yet one has the torque beginning to drop at 4-4.5 and the other starts dropping at 6. Turbo plumbing and the head has a massive influence on torque drop off which is why i am saying your speculation of retaining the same torque drop off is meaningless since it is based off of them sharing the same bottom end internals, yet does not acknowledge the increase in flow.
    You can mitigate torque drop off with different cam profiles, turbo sizes, tuning. etc., but it doesn't change the fact it is not a rev friendly design or that piston speeds won't be higher as a result of it.

    This is why is the bore and stroke was flipped it would be more impressive and more of a unique design (WITH ZERO CHANCE OF PISTONS OR ASSOCIATED PARTS BEING SHARED) hence the point about early reports being too good to be true.
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  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Right, the S55 doesn't so would you mind explaining to me why it is a physical impossibility for the coating to not work with the piston material considering that the S65 pistons are coated to work with cylinder liners?
    You just proved my point. The S65 must have iron coated pistons which it does since iron and aluminum have very good heat transfer and wear characteristics. The new twin wire arc spray is a thermal spray used to reduce friction on the cylinder walls. This doesn't mean they can use an aluminum piston on the aluminum cylinder wall since there is still contact resistance between the two metals. Mercedes is currently using this setup in the m156 if you want to read up on it. My guess would be that the new s55 pistons will be more similar to the s65 pistons as far as material goes. Im not saying i know what the pistons will be but rest assured they cannot be the same since the material it is wearing against is different. You previously stated that if the bore and stroke are the same than the internals and torque drop off are too. You just said "You can mitigate torque drop off with different cam profiles, turbo sizes, tuning. etc., but it doesn't change the fact it is not a rev friendly design or that piston speeds won't be higher as a result of it." Which somewhat contradicts what you said in the original posting about the m4. If you knew you could change torque drop off with different cam profiles, turbo sizes, tuning then why would you say the torque drop off is the same based off of bore and stroke? The pictures of the s55 clearly show completely different turbos from the n55 not to mention it is a twin setup which is for sure a different tune. Again, all i am saying is that your speculation that they will share the same parts is way off since the only thing the two motors share is bore and stroke and compression ratio which is not nearly enough to deduce that they share the same internals.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    This doesn't mean they can use an aluminum piston on the aluminum cylinder wall since there is still contact resistance between the two metals.
    You're telling me nobody uses aluminum pistons with an aluminum cylinder wall? Aren't pistons coated for this very reason?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    Im not saying i know what the pistons will be but rest assured they cannot be the same since the material it is wearing against is different. You previously stated that if the bore and stroke are the same than the internals and torque drop off are too. You just said "You can mitigate torque drop off with different cam profiles, turbo sizes, tuning. etc., but it doesn't change the fact it is not a rev friendly design or that piston speeds won't be higher as a result of it." Which somewhat contradicts what you said in the original posting about the m4.
    I don't see any contradiction as it isn't a rev friendly design. It's not going to have a torque curve like an S65. It's going to look more like an N55 that's for sure.

    Whatever material the pistons may be what if they are the same piston design and it is cheaper for BMW to source pistons that are the same bore from the same manufacturer? Why would they use the same bore and stroke? For the N63 and S63 it is to keep costs down with parts sharing. I don't see why this would not apply here even if the material happens to be different, the same, whatever.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    If you knew you could change torque drop off with different cam profiles, turbo sizes, tuning then why would you say the torque drop off is the same based off of bore and stroke?
    I didn't say the torque dropoff is the same I said 'torque dropoff' as in due to the bore stroke ratio being the same meaning that the design is not the rev friendly bore x stroke ratio previously reported which was flipped. How are you not picking up on that?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    The pictures of the s55 clearly show completely different turbos from the n55 not to mention it is a twin setup which is for sure a different tune. Again, all i am saying is that your speculation that they will share the same parts is way off since the only thing the two motors share is bore and stroke and compression ratio which is not nearly enough to deduce that they share the same internals.
    It is enough to clearly deduce the architecture is closer to the N55 than we were lead to believe. The N55 is not a high revving platform that holds its torque to redline. This is why it is more disappointing than if the bore and stroke were flipped as then the motor would be a completely different architecture instead of an evolution making for a unique S motor.
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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You're telling me nobody uses aluminum pistons with an aluminum cylinder wall? Aren't pistons coated for this very reason?



    I don't see any contradiction as it isn't a rev friendly design. It's not going to have a torque curve like an S65. It's going to look more like an N55 that's for sure.

    Whatever material the pistons may be what if they are the same piston design and it is cheaper for BMW to source pistons that are the same bore from the same manufacturer? Why would they use the same bore and stroke? For the N63 and S63 it is to keep costs down with parts sharing. I don't see why this would not apply here even if the material happens to be different, the same, whatever.



    I didn't say the torque dropoff is the same I said 'torque dropoff' as in due to the bore stroke ratio being the same meaning that the design is not the rev friendly bore x stroke ratio previously reported which was flipped. How are you not picking up on that?



    It is enough to clearly deduce the architecture is closer to the N55 than we were lead to believe. The N55 is not a high revving platform that holds its torque to redline. This is why it is more disappointing than if the bore and stroke were flipped as then the motor would be a completely different architecture instead of an evolution making for a unique S motor.
    You clearly aren't understanding this, no matter how I explain it to you so how about we wait until there is a detailed document on the exact material they used. The whole point of this was to simply request a little less speculation and bias, after this whole argument it is clear you don't know as much about these motors as you lead everyone to believe so until the motor is actually released, all I am asking is to stop talking down on the motor simply by drawing correlations to the other motors. If all you have to say about new M's is negative or mostly negative, then I don't understand why you even post about them, regardless its your forum so have at it. Just sick of reading all these one-sided articles.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    LOL @ disgrace.

    You haven't even driven one.

    What have you created that is such a "disgrace"?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by folgrz Click here to enlarge
    I'm just upset over the name change to M4

    It should have stayed M3.
    Click here to enlarge
    2006 AW/Black ZCP 6MT


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    E46 M3 Owners of the World <---- Join the FB group!!


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by folgrz Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    I agree the name change is silly. I picture a bunch of Germans in a conference room yelling about - OMG but out product lines do not make perfect sense! We must change it! Bleh...seems silly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    You clearly aren't understanding this, no matter how I explain it to you so how about we wait until there is a detailed document on the exact material they used. The whole point of this was to simply request a little less speculation and bias, after this whole argument it is clear you don't know as much about these motors as you lead everyone to believe so until the motor is actually released, all I am asking is to stop talking down on the motor simply by drawing correlations to the other motors. If all you have to say about new M's is negative or mostly negative, then I don't understand why you even post about them, regardless its your forum so have at it. Just sick of reading all these one-sided articles.
    I never claimed I knew what the piston material was so what are you talking about? I said the bore stroke being the same means the previous reports were wrong about the S55's unique architecture and this means the potential for parts sharing just like the N63/S63. How many times do I have to repeat this?

    You were not aware of the N63/S63 part sharing so you are the only one to get anything wrong and clearly since you did not know this is why you are having such an issue grasping the premise. Since I was aware of the N63/S63 part sharing clearly I know more about these motors than you do.

    If you don't like what I have to say about the motors then don't read it. It's hardly one-sided to point out BMW's cost cutting and how they are getting away from an enthusiast focus.

    I'll write whatever I choose to write, thanks.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I never claimed I knew what the piston material was so what are you talking about? I said the bore stroke being the same means the previous reports were wrong about the S55's unique architecture and this means the potential for parts sharing just like the N63/S63. How many times do I have to repeat this?

    You were not aware of the N63/S63 part sharing so you are the only one to get anything wrong and clearly since you did not know this is why you are having such an issue grasping the premise. Since I was aware of the N63/S63 part sharing clearly I know more about these motors than you do.

    If you don't like what I have to say about the motors then don't read it. It's hardly one-sided to point out BMW's cost cutting and how they are getting away from an enthusiast focus.

    I'll write whatever I choose to write, thanks.
    The potential for sharing parts is NOT the same as the S63/N63 since the s55 and n55 don't share the same block like the s63/n63 do not to mention the n55 has iron sleeves the s55 does not, something you were clearly not aware of which does effect parts being shared. The stroke between the n55 and s55 may be the same, but that doesn't mean the cranks between the two would be the same which they clearly aren't. So if you didn't even know the two blocks had different material liners, then how could you assume they share parts? The n63/s63 sharing parts logic doesn't apply here since the liners, open deck design, along with the block are different

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
    The potential for sharing parts is NOT the same as the S63/N63 since the s55 and n55 don't share the same block like the s63/n63 do not to mention the n55 has iron sleeves the s55 does not, something you were clearly not aware of which does effect parts being shared. The stroke between the n55 and s55 may be the same, but that doesn't mean the cranks between the two would be the same which they clearly aren't. So if you didn't even know the two blocks had different material liners, then how could you assume they share parts? The n63/s63 sharing parts logic doesn't apply here since the liners, along with the block are different.
    You're right, it's not going to be the exact same part sharing. However, with the bore and stroke retained the POTENTIAL for part sharing increases does it not?

    Additionally, it shows the S55 architecture is not quite as unique as it would have to be if the bore and stroke were flipped as then we know the pistons, rods, crank, etc., could not possibly be the same. Not to mention that the design would be more rev friendly. That is the part that is disappointing here and the whole premise. This will now share more things in common with the N55 rather than being a unique S motor. It's that simple.
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