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  1. #26
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    I honestly can't see why a vendor would agree to hand his competitor AFR, ignition timing, and vanos timing data for free. It seems to me that the only one who would accept those terms would be someone who thinks their kit isn't making enough power (and/or wants to justify it by saying the other tune isn't "safe").


    Personally, I think this should be done at a place where both vendors will be (bimmerfest, mfest, whatever). Get a modified car and stock car, do some 4th-gear vbox pulls, cool them down, flash one to PC and one to ESS, run some 4th-gear vbox pulls, cool them down, flash them to the other company, run 4th gear vbox pulls. Then compare the results (use my vbox dyno sheet if needed). No excuses about dynos not being accurate/loading enough/etc -- you get a real-world evaluation with driver skill removed. The participants can pick the tune they want to keep for beating on their cars...


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M
    The concept of a "custom tune" on the E9x M3 for a specific set of engine performance mods is very perplexing to me...since the Siemens MSS 60 ECU features a target-based software algorithm that uses three parallel 32-bit microprocessors (and more than a dozen engine senors) to calculate the horsepower & torque of the S65B40 V8 engine in any gear, and at any rpm. Click here to enlarge

    Since the basic software coding tables are designed by BMW to adapt on it's own (within a fixed preset target range), it's interesting to here how any tuner can claim they wrote a "custom tune" for a particular M3. (since the basic engine management software does not support a very narrow software programming methodology)
    Christopher Walken text... is that you Cleveland?

    If the concept of a "custom tune" seems perplexing to you, why do you not have the same problems with an "off the shelf" tune?


    Just one reason (out of many) -- do you not realize that there are differences from car to car (even stock). Despite the best quality control, there will be underperformers and factory freaks... So even if exactly the same mods are on two cars, they each might have an ideal tune. Why can't they just set the "target-based software algorithm" and let it adjust? Because that target needs to be set for each car. Maybe one hits peak torque at 3800rpm and the other at 4100rpm. Do you understand that timing & vanos values will be different around torque peaks? So if an off-the-shelf tune intends on max torque being at 3950rpm, a custom tune will have gains for both cars?
    Last edited by spdu4ea; 02-14-2010 at 02:00 AM.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    I honestly can't see why a vendor would agree to hand his competitor AFR, ignition timing, and vanos timing data for free. It seems to me that the only one who would accept those terms would be someone who thinks their kit isn't making enough power (and/or wants to justify it by saying the other tune isn't "safe").


    Personally, I think this should be done at a place where both vendors will be (bimmerfest, mfest, whatever). Get a modified car and stock car, do some 4th-gear vbox pulls, cool them down, flash one to PC and one to ESS, run some 4th-gear vbox pulls, cool them down, flash them to the other company, run 4th gear vbox pulls. Then compare the results (use my vbox dyno sheet if needed). No excuses about dynos not being accurate/loading enough/etc -- you get a real-world evaluation with driver skill removed. The participants can pick the tune they want to keep for beating on their cars...
    Glad you're here bro. Click here to enlarge
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    Glad you're here bro. Click here to enlarge
    Thanks Drew, nice forum you've got here.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    I honestly can't see why a vendor would agree to hand his competitor AFR, ignition timing, and vanos timing data for free. It seems to me that the only one who would accept those terms would be someone who thinks their kit isn't making enough power (and/or wants to justify it by saying the other tune isn't "safe").


    Personally, I think this should be done at a place where both vendors will be (bimmerfest, mfest, whatever). Get a modified car and stock car, do some 4th-gear vbox pulls, cool them down, flash one to PC and one to ESS, run some 4th-gear vbox pulls, cool them down, flash them to the other company, run 4th gear vbox pulls. Then compare the results (use my vbox dyno sheet if needed). No excuses about dynos not being accurate/loading enough/etc -- you get a real-world evaluation with driver skill removed. The participants can pick the tune they want to keep for beating on their cars...




    Christopher Walken text... is that you Cleveland?

    If the concept of a "custom tune" seems perplexing to you, why do you not have the same problems with an "off the shelf" tune?


    Just one reason (out of many) -- do you not realize that there are differences from car to car (even stock). Despite the best quality control, there will be underperformers and factory freaks... So even if exactly the same mods are on two cars, they each might have an ideal tune. Why can't they just set the "target-based software algorithm" and let it adjust? Because that target needs to be set for each car. Maybe one hits peak torque at 3800rpm and the other at 4100rpm. Do you understand that timing & vanos values will be different around torque peaks? So if an off-the-shelf tune intends on max torque being at 3950rpm, a custom tune will have gains for both cars?
    Yes, I know for a fact that "Cleveland" IS "Le Mans Blue M". On your other point about tuning you're spot on. Unfortunately people that use common sense like you cannot post on BSpost because you will be banned thats the sad part.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    I don't quite get his response Bro, but I don't know how the S65 ECU works, the fact is there are tons of tuned/custom as well, PC E9X M3's out there with happy customers, objectively I can't say I've read one review about ESS NA software, except the DCT option. I do remember that an employee at ESS claimed, and still does, that the GIAC software I ran on my SC'd E46 M3 was actually stock, lol, that's nuts, so the back forth about the competitors tune I take with a grain of salt.
    Drew, the S65 ECU is a sophisticated piece of technology that I am sure none of us have the ability to fully understand. It is the work of a group of talented people with degrees and experience beyond our comprehension.

    That being said, it is told what to do by software and that software can be changed/manipulated.

    PC has happy customers just as ESS does. However, ESS delivers a canned tune predominatly (not a bad thing, your GIAC tune is the same thing) but each car does not make the same power or behave in the same way from the factory. There are differences to a certain degree between all cars no matter what. A custom tune can take these variables into account and make adjustments the ECU may not on its own. It is not like the ECU is so adaptable you can just hook up a supercharger and it will work, it adjusts a specific set of parameters and freaks out on others and a custom tune is necessary to take full advantage of what is available.

    Exactly, stock software is not going to work with forced induction, that makes no sense.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike Benvo Click here to enlarge
    I'm not going to Arizona, unless it's for vacation - or unless it's arranged far in advance.

    I think it's better to check in with RPI and do the shootout there. We're certainly not giving ESS any of our files to test. I'm not sure where going to Arizona originated from, and why this has to be so overly complicated on M3 post. Once I have the time to respond to all of the BS that was posted, people will look at LemansM like the ESS shill that he is.

    Sticky: Saw (and heard) your car at Gintani. All I have to say is WOW - the freaking thing sounds and moves like an F1 car. I might find myself going the blower route soon. Great job on the car so far!

    Mike@PC
    Mike, did not realize it was you. Look, you get it, you are not going to Arizona as that is a ridiculous stipulation and I can't believe you would even be asked that. You won't get a fair shake over there.

    EXACTLY! I already spoke with Eloy this week, he knows what is up and this can be done no problem. This is not as complicated as M3post made it out to be, I have no idea why that thread got so convoluted. That is what I think makes the most sense as RPI is an ESS dealer... it makes far more sense than some ridiculous agreement forcing you to Arizona and using a USB drive to hand over your tune to someone, wtf?

    I appreciate the kind words about my car, has been an interesting ride so far!

    Let me know if I can help at all with arranging the shootout, on neutral ground, exactly as you and ESS agree to do it, with no one telling you what you guys should be doing. Regardless, I don't want to step on anyone's toes or get in the way, simply report the results without them being changed to fit what is "politically" correct for m3post.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonMartin Click here to enlarge
    Yes, I know for a fact that "Cleveland" IS "Le Mans Blue M". On your other point about tuning you're spot on. Unfortunately people that use common sense like you cannot post on BSpost because you will be banned thats the sad part.
    Proof Cleveland is Lemans Blue M? The guy jumps all over my headers on m3forum putting them down without any info saying how stupid it is to get aftermarket headers considering how good the factory header is without even realizing it is a modified stock header...

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Proof Cleveland is Lemans Blue M? The guy jumps all over my headers on m3forum putting them down without any info saying how stupid it is to get aftermarket headers considering how good the factory header is without even realizing it is a modified stock header...
    A famous moderator told me so Click here to enlarge Not to mention if you look at Cleveland's profile on M3forum he has a "Le mans blue M3" E46 in the pics and he has posted about looking for a detailer to detail his car in the Houston,TX area. Which Le mans blue M also happens to live.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonMartin Click here to enlarge
    A famous moderator told me so Click here to enlarge Not to mention if you look at Cleveland's profile on M3forum he has a "Le mans blue M3" E46 in the pics and he has posted about looking for a detailer to detail his car in the Houston,TX area. Which Le mans blue M also happens to live.
    Good circumstantial stuff, but not exactly proof. However, I have no doubt you are correct.

    Which mod by the way? Does it rhyme with StencilFreak? Famous is the wrong word Click here to enlarge

    You should have Cleveland take a look at this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSinnuf_mL0

  10. #35
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    Yes, He said he confessed during one of the calls where the freak was seeking his "automotive industry insider" advice for which FI kit to choose.

  11. #36
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    ahhhh $#@! i missed a bunch of stuff haha
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

  12. #37
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    hey sticky, your car sounds like a monster is stuck under the hood!! good work, post more vids!! oh, and, the "head-to-head" should be done at rpi. it'll be very fair if it's held at an ess dealer. win-win situation. go powerchip!!

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    I'm confused or did I miss something, who appointed Robert the leader of this potential shootout? Shouldn't ESS and PC determine what the rules are, as well as the location, etc.? Robert should step back and let the two players determine all the particulars, IMHO comparing dyno's is a bit meaningless, the 60-130 runs would be more telling, that might be hard to orgranize, but nothing wrong with having a fun dyno shootout.
    I am more then 100% on this with you. For me seeing this from overseas sometimes seems weird. And PG seems to be setting a lot of restrictions of what is fair and what is not.
    Current: 964 WB, 993, Panamera Turbo

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EUGENE-Taiwan Click here to enlarge
    I am more then 100% on this with you. For me seeing this from overseas sometimes seems weird. And PG seems to be setting a lot of restrictions of what is fair and what is not.
    Trust me, people are getting really sick of it.

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    Looks like we have a few lurkers that don't want to post here. Click here to enlarge

    BigPuna wrote:
    "I find it hard to believe that an employee of powerchips would make accusations like this towards members of this board on an open forum. Just because Lemans has said he thinks ESS makes a good product you make personal attacks against him ? This seems very unprofessional to me.

    Can you comment on this ?"

    First of all cut the crap, LeMansBlueM is not a victim he is a grown man and knows exactly what his intentions are Even though it wasn't directed to me I can tell you that you're taking Mike's quote out of context no surprise here as thats a popluar thing on BSpost. Mike made that statement about LeMansBlueM simply because of what he said about custom tunes and why he thinks there is no such thing. Essentially calling BS on PC and custom tuning which btw is the dumbest thing I've ever heard and makes me wonder how so many people buy into this guys non-sense.

    Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M
    "The concept of a "custom tune" on the E9x M3 for a specific set of engine performance mods is very perplexing to me...since the Siemens MSS 60 ECU features a target-based software algorithm that uses three parallel 32-bit microprocessors (and more than a dozen engine senors) to calculate the horsepower & torque of the S65B40 V8 engine in any gear, and at any rpm. Click here to enlarge

    Since the basic software coding tables are designed by BMW to adapt on it's own (within a fixed preset target range), it's interesting to here how any tuner can claim they wrote a "custom tune" for a particular M3. (since the basic engine management software does not support a very narrow software programming methodology)"


    But as the other member here "spdu4ea" wrote:

    "If the concept of a "custom tune" seems perplexing to you, why do you not have the same problems with an "off the shelf" tune? "

    I think that statement alone is spot on, In other words why do people buy tunes at all if the car tunes itself? The same steps used to do an " off the shelf" tune on a car are the same steps used to do a custom map for a specific car. Therefore Mike@PC said:

    " I'm not going to Arizona, unless it's for vacation - or unless it's arranged far in advance.

    I think it's better to check in with RPI and do the shootout there. We're certainly not giving ESS any of our files to test. I'm not sure where going to Arizona originated from, and why this has to be so overly complicated on M3 post. Once I have the time to respond to all of the BS that was posted, people will look at LemansM like the ESS shill that he is.

    Mike@PC "


    There yougo "Bigpuna" now copy and paste all of that over on BSpost. Or better yet direct them chaps over here for a nice discussion about it where no one has to worry about getting banned for making sense mmmkk..

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by JonMartin; 02-15-2010 at 05:55 PM.

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    Why do people buy tunes if the car tunes itself? Exactly, it is adaptable to certain things but certainly is not set to go for "max performance" from the factory nor does it necessarily perfectly adjust to other mods. It is a great ECU and does incredible calculations but people act like this thing can be hooked up to anything and just like magic the ECU will figure it all out by itself. It may even do kids homework for them.

    A lot of people from over there are reading this thread, including PencilGeek lol, and that is the whole goal, have people looking here to get the real story and BSpost can't do anything about it.

    Would also like to hear what else Mike has to say on the topic.

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    haahahhaha omg...this is too funny.


    we got two lurkers right now....Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by shahsk; 02-15-2010 at 08:22 PM.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

  18. #43
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    I appreciate this forum, I have heard rumors for some time now about unethical behavior... the truth is coming out. What's truly sad is the owners of M3Post allowing the conflict of interest to continue.
    2009 BMW E92 M3
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  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Vic55 Click here to enlarge
    I appreciate this forum, I have heard rumors for some time now about unethical behavior... the truth is coming out. What's truly sad is the owners of M3Post allowing the conflict of interest to continue.
    M3post's owners honestly don't care about the enthusiast. That forum has turned into a lucrative business venture, good for them. However, I care, and the tuning companies certainly care as that is their product.

    You know many of these companies yourself Vic. RPI for example was engaged in a technical discussion, a discussion about exhausts that would have been to everyone's benefit. RPI was banned because Eloy would not allow Jason to extort money from him in order to continue talking about the exhaust.

    Well... I find that sad as Jason chose sponsorship fees over the enthusiast. The same thing happened with BMS essentially, Shiv over BMS although that is a bit different. CP-E was also pushed out for similar reasons... everyone feels that forum is heading down a sad path. The fact they are desperately trying to censor me just reinforces it.

    I will give them credit, it was a great source of information at one point, but that time is over with and now it is a vendor money milking machine and people should be VERY aware of admin/moderator ties to certain vendors Click here to enlarge

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    M3post's owners honestly don't care about the enthusiast. That forum has turned into a lucrative business venture, good for them. However, I care, and the tuning companies certainly care as that is their product.

    You know many of these companies yourself Vic. RPI for example was engaged in a technical discussion, a discussion about exhausts that would have been to everyone's benefit. RPI was banned because Eloy would not allow Jason to extort money from him in order to continue talking about the exhaust.

    Well... I find that sad as Jason chose sponsorship fees over the enthusiast. The same thing happened with BMS essentially, Shiv over BMS although that is a bit different. CP-E was also pushed out for similar reasons... everyone feels that forum is heading down a sad path. The fact they are desperately trying to censor me just reinforces it.

    I will give them credit, it was a great source of information at one point, but that time is over with and now it is a vendor money milking machine and people should be VERY aware of admin/moderator ties to certain vendors Click here to enlarge
    Who owns M3Post again?
    2009 BMW E92 M3
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  21. #46
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    So this is where all the knowledgeable people went. That whole thread on M3post is going down the drain. It is not even worth reading anymore. It is amazing how a great idea can be turned into just pure marketing garbage.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DoNDoN Click here to enlarge
    So this is where all the knowledgeable people went. That whole thread on M3post is going down the drain. It is not even worth reading anymore. It is amazing how a great idea can be turned into just pure marketing garbage.
    How did you find out about the site? They have anything even remotely referencing this place on lockdown as if we have the plague.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How did you find out about the site? They have anything even remotely referencing this place on lockdown as if we have the plague.
    I googled ESS vs Powerchip and this came up.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DoNDoN Click here to enlarge
    I googled ESS vs Powerchip and this came up.
    Glad I put that meta tag in the article Click here to enlarge

    We are happy to have you here.

    Muahaha, can't block google now can you Jason?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Vic55 Click here to enlarge
    Who owns M3Post again?
    Jason owns M3post. Good to see you here bro!

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