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  1. #1
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    Interest in running a return style fuel system?

    Hey all,

    Wanted to gauge interest in this as I've been contacted a couple times recently about LPFP setups for big numbers.

    I've been running a return style system for about 8 months now and frankly for those that are going to want to be pushing big numbers without meth...I think this is going to be the direction to go. Especially if you want to push big numbers and E85. Now that there is a lot of work being done on the HPFP side, talk about port injection, big singles being installed...a robust LPFP setup is going to be key.

    A couple of advantages to a return style system.

    1. Your potential fuel supply ceiling is substantially improved. (more info on that to come)
    2. You can run around in stock mode with the DME happy but the minute you go WOT...Click here to enlarge... the DME no longer cares what the LPFP sensor sees as long as it's not diving. Then once you let off the gas...back to stock mode Click here to enlarge

    3. All in tank systems remain 100% functional with 1 minor difference...no internal POS regulator!

    4. Everything becomes plug and play and returning to stock isn't an issue if you save those parts.

    5. No trying to get (and control) another pump in the tank.

    6. JB4 can very easily control this or you can do it by other means...I've done both. Click here to enlarge

    While it seems like it would be a huge PITA...it really isn't that bad especially if it's done right and everything is provided for you. Click here to enlarge Having done this and given all the work I'm doing on the LPFP side, it seems it would be the natural progression for me.

    I already have a couple things going on LPFP in tank side...adding this would make for a system that is potentially capable of 1000+ horsepower. Click here to enlarge (Based on pump specs...will be verifying flows and then one of you guys with the big guns will have to verify on the street)

    Just curious to see what the interest is before I start gathering information and documenting things.

    As an example...here is a screen shot of my LPFP system in action....

    The LPFP side of things on E82

    Click here to enlarge

    The HPFP (I target 2500 psi and have supplemental injection which is starting to be talked about more these days) Also notice on shifts...the HPFP pressures don't dive Click here to enlarge I spend the majority of my time above target.
    Click here to enlarge

    Now...all that said..it's not going to be the cheapest setup.

    Estimated costs to do it RIGHT is right at $1500 but:

    1. It's done right
    2. You can return to stock
    3. It'll support big numbers.

    Now...of course there are ways to get the costs down if I can work with vendors (providing there is enough interest) less quality parts (not really interested in that so that's not going to happen) or you don't care about returning to stock and want to save a couple hundred bucks via core charges and refunds.

    Again, just gauging interest...not offering anything for sale or making any promises.

  2. #2
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    I like it.

  3. #3
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SteveAZ Click here to enlarge
    You must spread reputation around before rating this user again.
    I try to rep you more but I can't. You really deserve unlimited rep lol. You need a single turbo already man! I'd love to see what this whole kit would look like and consist of.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  4. #4
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    hahaha...it's the thought that counts....

    Honestly...no interest in going to a single..maybe somebody local will and I can work on their car Click here to enlarge

    As for what the kit would consist of...that I can answer with some certainty...(in order from tank to HPFP without getting too descriptive)

    1. Obviously a boosted in tank fuel pump setup (with quick connect return fitting)
    2. Stock regulator block off
    3. E85 compatible fuel line (stock filter to external filter)
    4. 10um E85 compatible high flow filter
    5. E85 compatible fuel line (external filter to inline pump)
    6. E85 rated high flow inline fuel pump
    7. E85 compatible fuel line (inline pump to regulator)
    8. Boost referenced regulator w/return
    9. E85 compatible fuel line (regulator return to LPFP bucket assembly)
    10. E85 compatible fuel line (regulator to LPFP sensor assembly)
    11. Wiring harness for fuel pump, wires, relay.......

    Optional:
    12. Boost controlled solenoid (if JB4 isn't used)
    13. E85 injection kit

    I think that covers it....Click here to enlarge

  5. #5
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    Definitely going to a top quality piece with lots of thought put into it. Pretty much a whole new LPFP system from there to HPFP.

    Is this currently the same thing you're running, or something currently in theory?
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  6. #6
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Definitely going to a top quality piece with lots of thought put into it. Pretty much a whole new LPFP system from there to HPFP.

    Is this currently the same thing you're running, or something currently in theory?
    Yes...I've been running this setup for 8 months.

    A correction though (it's late)...I swapped the placement of the filter and the inline pump.... it should read. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SteveAZ Click here to enlarge
    hahaha...it's the thought that counts....

    Honestly...no interest in going to a single..maybe somebody local will and I can work on their car Click here to enlarge

    As for what the kit would consist of...that I can answer with some certainty...(in order from tank to HPFP without getting too descriptive)

    1. Obviously a boosted in tank fuel pump setup (with quick connect return fitting)
    2. Stock regulator block off
    3. E85 compatible fuel line (stock filter to inline pump)
    4. E85 rated high flow inline fuel pump
    5. E85 compatible fuel line (inline pump to external filter)
    6. 10um E85 compatible high flow filter
    7. E85 compatible fuel line (external filter to regulator)
    8. Boost referenced regulator w/return
    9. E85 compatible fuel line (regulator return to LPFP bucket assembly)
    10. E85 compatible fuel line (regulator to LPFP sensor assembly)
    11. Wiring harness for fuel pump, wires, relay.......

    Optional:
    12. Boost controlled solenoid (if JB4 isn't used)
    13. E85 injection kit

    I think that covers it....Click here to enlarge
    And I know this sounds kind of in depth and intimidating...it's not bad at all...especially if everything is laid out for ya. With a kit and good instructions...I'll bet 2-3 hours.

  7. #7
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    @SteveAZ great work man! I'd rep you too if I could, and I'd be all over this if I were local to you Click here to enlarge

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    Would this be available anytime soon?

  9. #9
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    @SteveAZ great work man! I'd rep you too if I could, and I'd be all over this if I were local to you Click here to enlarge
    That's kind of the idea...to offer a kit that is plug and play so you don't have to be. That said...if this has any chance of getting off the ground, I would be doing it on another local car first.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by aflatau Click here to enlarge
    Would this be available anytime soon?
    No...it would be a while to do all the research, sourcing, documentation, and testing.

    As I said I've been running one for a while now...so it's not like it's starting from scratch and I already know what works, but when I did mine I didn't document everything during the install process to present to others. I'd also make a couple changes and a couple custom parts need to be fab'd. Then there is working with vendors to source parts and all that fun stuff. This is not just a simple matter of slapping a kit together and shipping it out.

  10. #10
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    I'm very interested. Would love to have a complete fuel system capable of 100% E85. Where are you located? If my single was up and running I'd see if we couldn't figure something out for testing. I probably won't be ready though for 4 weeks or so I'm guessing. Maybe sooner, maybe later.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

  11. #11
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    I'm in Arizona....thinking there is a local car that may be up for the test fitting and it's a 335...so that'll be nice to have both a 1 series and a 3 series for comparison.

    I have a few irons in the fire and they all build on each other...so we have a little time Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I am in, PM me when this is more real
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    I am in, PM me when this is more real
    hey man check your pm's, got a quick question for you.

  14. #14
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    No PMs from you bro. @camberadam
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    No PMs from you bro. @camberadam
    weird, its showing in my sent items. resent...

  16. #16
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    I've been doing a little more experimenting with my external return style system and E85 injection (single .225lpm nozzle) and took this log tonight on a verified E82.5.

    Fuel system seems pretty happy......but is completely custom Click here to enlarge

    HPFP

    Click here to enlarge

    LPFP

    Click here to enlarge

    Going to keep dialing this in as time permits but seems as though I may be a little ahead of the curve as far as there being enough interest for developing a more DIY friendly kit.

  17. #17
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    I agree you may be a bit ahead of the curve on this as far as need and interest, for the amount of money and work it took to install the return style system we did not see much improvement over stock at these power levels. We have pulled the return style system off the car and I am so much happier now, I was having bleed back issues and long cranks etc. It could have been my injectors not sure as I found out almost all of them were going bad, I replaced all 6 and the car has never ran this good since I have owned it, but I was always having some issues with the return style system. I agree for the high pressures you need to run the E85 injection its def the only way to go as the factory system wouldn't be up to that task. I am surprised at how well the factory system does with 100% E85 though. Its given me no problems since I switched back, even the phantom fuel pump codes are gone which I have had forever. Its been a pleasure talking with you and getting fuel system advice, you are quickly becoming the LPFP king of the N54 platform...Click here to enlarge

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    That's silly HPFP PSI Steve, wow.

    Where are you spraying E85 in the CP again?
    E88 N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Motiv HTA 3586r Tial .82AR/Motiv Port Fuel/BMR 3.5" Exhaust/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/ST Coilovers/M3 FCA + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/AA Strutbrace/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
    F30 335 X-Drive EBII....PPK otherwise Stock
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  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I agree you may be a bit ahead of the curve on this as far as need and interest, for the amount of money and work it took to install the return style system we did not see much improvement over stock at these power levels. We have pulled the return style system off the car and I am so much happier now, I was having bleed back issues and long cranks etc. It could have been my injectors not sure as I found out almost all of them were going bad, I replaced all 6 and the car has never ran this good since I have owned it, but I was always having some issues with the return style system. I agree for the high pressures you need to run the E85 injection its def the only way to go as the factory system wouldn't be up to that task. I am surprised at how well the factory system does with 100% E85 though. Its given me no problems since I switched back, even the phantom fuel pump codes are gone which I have had forever. Its been a pleasure talking with you and getting fuel system advice, you are quickly becoming the LPFP king of the N54 platform...Click here to enlarge
    Yeah...I really want to simplify the process and I'm getting there.

    I'm not sure how yours was set up and there are definitely some nuances that have to be dialed in. I don't have the issues you speak of and mine is very robust but it took me a little while to get it dialed and figure everything out so it performed well and the DME was happy.

    Much like yourself I've been through pretty much every facet of the fuel system and sacrificed a few parts to the R&D process. The majority of the components as you have mentioned aren't a concern with E85 and like you said, actually do very well. Those that are freaked out by the HPFP compatibility...cleary haven't been inside one Click here to enlarge
    Always a pleasure working with people on their fueling needs and seeing your project come together Click here to enlarge...thanks for the opportunity!

    Nice work and can't wait to see what the future holds. Click here to enlarge

    As far as E85 injection for the masses (at least CP)...it just won't be feasible except for those that have regular access to E85 or their car is basically a toy. In that way I'm fortunate.

    As for direct port injection...that might be another story but there will be a couple nuances to work out in that arena too.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    That's silly HPFP PSI Steve, wow.

    Where are you spraying E85 in the CP again?
    Yes...that is a single nozzle installed in a BMS CP in the port that is the furthest from the throttle body on the underside of the CP. If you look under my hood...unless you really examine things and know what you're looking for...you have no idea anything is going on in there Click here to enlarge As it progresses even further...it is likely to virtually disappear Click here to enlarge

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