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  1. #26
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    Laloosh is a pain in my ass but he's right about the water. Be really careful with it. Water does reduce EGT and has some place, and of course helps the flow sensors live longer, but you really want to limit the volume.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Laloosh is a pain in my ass but he's right about the water. Be really careful with it. Water does reduce EGT and has some place, and of course helps the flow sensors live longer, but you really want to limit the volume.
    Im a pain in your because Im usually right Click here to enlarge
    Not my fault you recommend flow sensors that arnt up to the task.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    The ONLY reason on this car when you should run a mix of meth/water is when you are worried about fire safty, at that point you should run less meth then water. 100 percent meth will ALWAYS make more power. Meth is fuel, water is not.
    Something to point out, water does serve its purpose:

    At this juncture, it is worth pointing out that water injection can effectively solve two critical problems simultaneously. Firstly, the octane rating of water is virtually infinite. (Think about it, just how high would the compression have to be to get water to detonate?) Don't imagine for one moment that a fine spray of water is going to put out the fire. Spraying even a huge amount of water as a fine mist into a gasoline fire serves only to make a lot of steam. It does not come close to putting out the fire. In addition to pushing the apparent octane of the intake charge up, the water also cools the peak temperatures to the extent that melting anything down is totally countered. To give you an idea just how effective water injection is, I can say while I was a student we successfully ran a 17:1 compression tractor engine on kerosene (less than 50 octane) and water injection. More in line with what we are doing here: how about a 1,100hp 350 small-block Chevy on 35-psi boost and 87-octane fuel? Water injection flat works, and if you are in the market for a system, check out Snow Performance.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Something to point out, water does serve its purpose:
    Untill you get meth on YOUR n54, stop applying what you read on the internet. Water is useless on this engine for power.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Untill you get meth on YOUR n54, stop applying what you read on the internet. Water is useless on this engine for power.
    But not useless for helping prevent detonation, right? Maybe read the post and not just interpret it the way you want?

    Oh, and the person who wrote that, you could learn a few things from.
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  6. #31
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    Its funny reading some of this stuff. Here are a few facts:

    1) water is no more or likely to hydrolock your engine than methanol.
    2) a stock N54 can run a 500/ccm of water (or even more) with no fear of "injecing too much water"
    3) while methanol increases octane, water lowers the engines octane requirements making it far safer.
    4) water prevents detonation far better than methanol
    5) running a mix of methanol/water gives you the best combination of engine safety and power.

    For those of you that are worried about spraying too much water and hydrolocking, you have to understand that methanol can hydrolock your engine as well. The reason you can run so much water without any problems is because the mixture is atomized and largely soaks the heat and evaporates. If you were spraying a garden hose in your engine, yes I would worry about it, other than that, there is no issue running a mixture of meth/water.

    For every one person who says methanol makes more power you will find someone with a mix of methanol/water that makes just as much.

    as a company I dont recommend running 100% methanol unless you are in a controlled environment due to the risk of fire being so great. For those that need to and have the risks under control we will have something for the CMGS/VC2 that will allow you to do that in a few months.

    Having said that, I run a Mix of water/meth, however if I was only worried about preventing detonation I would run 100% water without any fears of injecting too much water.

    I believe that some of the recent engines that blew up ran more water they would have an engine today. Anyone that goes to the limit and does not run some water is ignoring the one safety aspect that can save the engine.


    CM
    .

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    1) water is no more or likely to hydrolock your engine than methanol.
    2) a stock N54 can run a 500/ccm of water (or even more) with no fear of "injecing too much water"
    3) while methanol increases octane, water lowers the engines octane requirements making it far safer.
    4) water prevents detonation far better than methanol
    5) running a mix of methanol/water gives you the best combination of engine safety and power.
    6) Water absorbs twice as much heat as methanol.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    6) Water absorbs twice as much heat as methanol.
    agreed, had that covered in #4, but not everyone is that saavy, so spelling it out is a good thing

    4) water prevents detonation far better than methanol
    This is why our flow sensor needs atleast 30% water. The sensor itself is compatible with 100% meth, it can sit in meth all day long. When the bearings spin the methanol does not keep it cool enough causing it to temporarily lock up. This combined with the boiling point of 147F for meth, you get the idea. Running atleast 30% water keeps the bearings cool enough.

    CM

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    agreed, had that covered in #4, but not everyone is that saavy, so spelling it out is a good thing
    You did by assocation, yes, but thought it was important to mention this property.
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  10. #35
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    I love how vendors swing arguments to make them for favorable for themselves.

    Answer this:
    1. What will hydrolock a motor first. Meth or water? Point prooven
    2. Actually try pushing high boost on meth alone, and see if you get a better timing curve with water or meth or a mix. Based on TONS of independent testing (supported by 3 of the top tuners (CPE/SHIV/TERRY), the more meth in your mix, the more octane, the more power.
    3. I get the same exact trap speed on meth alone as I do on meth on meth along with race gas.

    Like I stated before, the only reason anyone should run a mix is if they are worried about saftey or have hardware that limits them to a certain percentage.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    I love how vendors swing arguments to make them for favorable for themselves.

    Answer this:
    1. What will hydrolock a motor first. Meth or water? Point prooven
    take a gallon of meth and dump in the engine and start the car and see what happens. Your point proves nothing.
    2. Actually try pushing high boost on meth alone, and see if you get a better timing curve with water or meth or a mix. Based on TONS of independent testing (supported by 3 of the top tuners (CPE/SHIV/TERRY), the more meth in your mix, the more octane, the more power.
    If your tune is setup for 100% meth you are correct. Take 100% meth and put on a stock car and then take 100% water put on a stock car. Which one loses power? I will give you a hint 100% meth. Its easy to make more power with 100% meth if your tune is setup for 100% meth. Those that want to ignore the safety factor, have fun.



    3. I get the same exact trap speed on meth alone as I do on meth on meth along with race gas.
    Im not arguing with you.

    Like I stated before, the only reason anyone should run a mix is if they are worried about saftey or have hardware that limits them to a certain percentage.
    I define safety as:

    1) limiting the chances that your car will catch on fire and burn to the ground
    2) limiting the chances that your engine will detonate under load

    So I guess we are on the same page.

    CM

  12. #37
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    1. You didnt answer my question. I will rephrase it. Will it take LESS meth or water to hydrolock a motor? Point proove again.
    2. Like stated already, if you goal is power, 100 percent meth is the way to go. Thanks for confirming what I said multiple times already.
    3. Water does not limit the chance of my engine detonating, it increases it because the octane level drop is far more significant then the extra cooling provided by water. On a mix, my timing is lower, on meth alone my timing is higher. That means on meth alone, I am not detonating and on a mix, I AM.
    4. Saftey I already covered. We are on the same page here.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    1. You didnt answer my question. I will rephrase it. Will it take LESS meth or water to hydrolock a motor? Point proove again.
    you have no point here. It does not matter what takes "less". it takes alot of water to hydrolock an engine and as long as your engine is running you are at little risk of it. You are spraying gallons per HOUR through a fine orifice.

    If I said, what is less likely to kill you a sniper bullet to the head or a machine gun to the body that would be equivelant to your comparison.




    2. Like stated already, if you goal is power, 100 percent meth is the way to go. Thanks for confirming what I said multiple times already.
    I did not say that, read it again. I will let users decide what gets them more power/timing. There is no one size fits all answer here.


    3. Water does not limit the chance of my engine detonating, it increases it because the octane level drop is far more significant then the extra cooling provided by water.
    wrong again. wrong, wrong and wrong. You are not very bright to say this. you act like an expert but you are spewing mis-information.

    On a mix, my timing is lower, on meth alone my timing is higher. That means on meth alone, I am not detonating and on a mix, I AM.
    Um ok, if you say so.
    4. Saftey I already covered. We are on the same page here.
    sweet

  14. #39
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    I am not very bright at this. lmao, all the top guys BASED ON REAL WORLD RESULTS, agree with me that meth is better for power.

    Im done here before I start calling you an idiot....again

  15. #40
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    i think this could shed some insight to a few things

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...reat-knowledge

    i think the only guys needing 100% meth are the ones using for fuel, so in that regard its running a bit "safer." But a proper mix is the best because if you only use enough for fuel, the more water you can add adds more safety through a different process

    (take as opinion and not fact as im not even close to knowing what im talking about, only sharing info posted by others that do)

  16. #41
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    Why is everyone applying what works for other cars. The n54 is very sensative to timing and octane. The only way you can get away with a 60/40 70/30 is if you arnt going tor max power.

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    3. Water does not limit the chance of my engine detonating, it increases it because the octane level drop is far more significant then the extra cooling provided by water. On a mix, my timing is lower, on meth alone my timing is higher. That means on meth alone, I am not detonating and on a mix, I AM.
    How is this possible? Water does not limit the chance of your engine detonating? Yes it does. It isn't lowering your octane, it cools the intake charge which straight meth won't and absorbs heat that meth can't absorb preventing detonation. There is no way injecting straight meth will prevent detonation the way water does, it is physically impossible. It also is impossible for it to lower your octane rating as that is a measure of resistance to detonation.

    You aren't detonating with water, your timing being lower is not proof and you don't have graphs to prove your timing even is lower. Even assuming it is, the physical properties of water allow you to push far more before detonation than on straight meth.

    The more you type the more I'm beginning to think you are more interesting in arguing than accuracy as you have made some very basic mistakes here.
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  18. #43
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    Water lowers octane.....
    I don't have graphs? I have hundreds of datalogs btwn me and jpslick.
    Like I stated, you sound like somebody who reads something on the internet and thinks this is what people should do without actually even trying it on a n54 engine.

    If my timing is lower, that means the car knocked, SIMPLE as that. Get a better understanding of timing control on the n54 ecu before you make bogus claims.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Water lowers octane.....
    No, it does not. It actually does a similar thing that an octane booster does which is making it harder to combust. The argument would be that it raises octane, not lowers. Regardless, there are no molecules of octane in water but it still raises detonation resistance. That would be going in the opposite direction of what you are saying.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Like I stated, you sound like somebody who reads something on the internet and thinks this is what people should do without actually even trying it on a n54 engine.
    If that was the case why am I not accepting your statements on the internet? You made a mistake regarding water, big deal, coolingmist is actually correct on this aspect.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    If my timing is lower, that means the car knocked, SIMPLE as that. Get a better understanding of timing control on the n54 ecu before you make bogus claims.
    I find it rather silly you can't swallow your pride in this instance. I see no support for your claim of lower timing other than your word and secondly, it is a physical impossibility for 100% meth to have better knock resistance than water injection due to the chemical properties of the substances themselves.

    You might need to take a Chemistry class so you don't keep making bogus claims about water injection which is what you have done in this thread.
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  20. #45
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    The more water you have in you mix, the lower octane rating you have, please for the love of god, learn something before you spread bull$#@! information around.

    Ask terry or shiv what they perfer to run for MAX POWER dyno number or trap speeds. I could care less if you don't believe me. Coolingmist is blabbing their mouth for one reason, to favor their hardware.

    More water in a meth/water mix means less octane. Water, as stated, doesnt have an octane, hell in order to even have an octane, it has to be a fuel that ignites/combusts.....which water does neither.

    Running Straight meth will make more power because straight meth still cools the charge and adds octane.
    You believe running colder with less octane makes more power.
    I believe (as does anybody who has actually attempted to push the limit on the n54) that meth with a higher charge and octane rating makes more power.

    Like stated, ask terry/shiv/cpe or anybody who tried pushing their car to its hardware limitations

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge
    less boost 70/30 mix

    more boost 100 percent meth
    Click here to enlarge

    Where are your logs showing your arguement?

    Notice how the water cools a little better but as time goes buy, it starts creeping up just like pure meth and timing starts dropping on less boost than the meth run

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Ask terry or shiv what they perfer to run for MAX POWER dyno number or trap speeds. I could care less if you don't believe me. Coolingmist is blabbing their mouth for one reason, to favor their hardware.
    You are moving off the topic now and talking about max power, I haven't brought that up and neither has coolingmist.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    The more water you have in you mix, the lower octane rating you have, please for the love of god, learn something before you spread bull$#@! information around.
    Do you know what octane even is? It is the fuel's ability to resist detonation. Water's octane rating could be said to be infinite, it doesn't combust. I don't understand why you don't get this.

    You could not be more wrong when you say water lowers octane. Terry, Shiv, CP-E, can push anything they want it doesn't change the physical properties of water.
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  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j2...e3ignition.jpg
    less boost 70/30 mix

    more boost 100 percent meth, in higher temps. Notice starting intake temps in both runs.
    http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j2...4/Logs/123.jpg

    Where are your logs showing your arguement?
    I'm not sure how those prove you actually were running 70/30 or 100% with those logs, you could pick and choose anything and apply it.

    It really doesn't matter, water doesn't lower octane only ups resistance to detonation. What you are stating does not make sense, I'm not sure why you don't see it.
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  24. #49
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    yea im lying.

    As for you octane rating of water.
    AS ALREADY STATED in order for something to have an octane rating it has to be A FUEL, WATER is not a fuel. If it was, why don't I just dump 13 gallons of water into my fuel tank.

    As for my max power argument, I have stated SEVERAL TIMES I am talking about power, max power. And a mix of water will always make less power, meaning that meth will make more. The only way water will make equal power to pure meth is if your tune is already has maxed out timing on water/ or a water mix. If you add timing to that tune, it will knock, if you add meth and timing, it will make more power.

    WATER IN A METH MIX LOWERS OCTANE OF THE MIX. Holy $#@! me dude.

  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    yea im lying.

    As for you octane rating of water.
    AS ALREADY STATED in order for something to have an octane rating it has to be A FUEL, WATER is not a fuel. If it was, why don't I just dump 13 gallons of water into my fuel tank.
    Exactly, so if water is not a fuel and does not combust why would it lower the octane rating? It increases resistance to detonation. You shoot yourself in the foot right here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    As for my max power argument, I have stated SEVERAL TIMES I am talking about power, max power.
    If you want to talk about max power, go ahead. My statement was that you were incorrect when you said water lowers the octane rating. That is what I directly referencing and speaking about. I am not talking about power potential on 100% meth.

    You are now attempting to spin it to the % of water in the mix? Focus:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh
    Water does not limit the chance of my engine detonating, it increases it because the octane level drop is far more significant then the extra cooling provided by water.
    Yes, water does prevent detonation and it does not decrease the octane level.

    Holy $#@! me dude is right.
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