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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Maybe we can end up swapping notes. I'm still several weeks, if not months away from getting my car finished though. I'm doing pretty much everything you have discussed so far with my HPF build. I'm hoping for 850-900 RWHP, OS Giken 3 disc, fully built IRS and diff, electronics etc.. I'm obviously heavier with a convertible though.

    I gave some serious thought to going with a live axle setup, but I'm just not quite ready to give up the driving experience of the IRS. If I find myself breaking stuff, I won't hesitate though to go with a 9" Ford live axle. I've got some "back halving" experience and there is a robust aftermarket for custom 9" Ford live axle setups. In fact, it would cost about the same to go live axle instead of just adding DSS axles, drive shaft, diff etc.
    You would really put a live axle on it? Is your sole intent 1/4 mile?

    I think with reinforced axles, driveshaft and driveshaft mounting the rear end should be fine. Make sure to have rubber bushings and no solid mounts on suspension parts. Also a big tire at the track will help alot as well.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    You would really put a live axle on it? Is your sole intent 1/4 mile?
    Well that is the main reason for my hesitation. I would like to be able to road track the car on occasion, however it would most likely end up on a drag strip most of the time. With a properly setup live axle I could still road race the car, it would just loose some of it's performance.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    I think with reinforced axles, driveshaft and driveshaft mounting the rear end should be fine. Make sure to have rubber bushings and no solid mounts on suspension parts. Also a big tire at the track will help alot as well.
    You don't want to keep rubber bushings, you need to switch to either solids or poly bushings. The rubber bushings is part of the reason why IRS's wheel hop because of the flex. The other problem with the BMW IRS is that even if you beef up the axles, driveshaft and diff, you are simply transferring more force on the IRS mounting points, diff cover etc.. So by fixing one problem, your probably opening up the door for other problems.

    I have been building drag cars for 20 years now. I have some prior experience with IRS on my 64 Bug I raced. To solve wheel hop we used what was called a "Kafer Bar" which was basically a torque arm. http://www.csp-shop.de/technik/pdf/deeng/20917.pdf

    Problem with the E46 M3 is there it very little aftermarket for this type of setup because the M3 is geared for road race, not drag race. A good example are the newer Cobra mustangs that come with IRS. Obviously American muscle will end up mainly on a drag strip, not a road course. There have been several aftermarket solutions for IRS wheel hop for the Cobra, but most simply swap out a live axle from a GT.

    Bottom line, if your serious about drag racing the M3 with the power levels we are putting down, the IRS will never be reliable without major modifications to its structural mounting and range of motion. From what I can see from my research, you can't have a car that will be reliable at the drag strip and reliable at the road course. At some point I'll have to make a decision where my car will spend most its time.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Has anyone even attempted this with an E46?
    Not to my knowledge.. but I gave it some serious thought. I'm going to experiment with the IRS first. I have a performance fab shop near me that I know the owner of. I'm hoping to have him and a few other suspension gurus look at the BMW IRS and see if there is any "bolt on" modification solution that can be found. I don't mind spending the money to R&D this because ultimately I could potential profit from a solution.

    I had briefly considered seeing if HPF would work with Chassis Engineering in Florida to come up with a "bolt in" live axle solution, but given the limited market for such a product the idea kinda fizzled as quickly as I thought about it. If I decide to go "all out" as a drag car, I would probably work with Chassis Engineering though to come up with a solution.

    Problem is there is just simply not enough market interest in supporting "drag mods" for the E46 M3.. so very little R&D has been done to resolve wheel hop.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    From what I can see from my research, you can't have a car that will be reliable at the drag strip and reliable at the road course.
    GTR? Gallardo TT? ZR-1? Z06? Viper?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    At some point I'll have to make a decision where my car will spend most its time.
    I look forward to seeing what you do, I may be at a similar crossroads soon.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Not to my knowledge.. but I gave it some serious thought. I'm going to experiment with the IRS first. I have a performance fab shop near me that I know the owner of. I'm hoping to have him and a few other suspension gurus look at the BMW IRS and see if there is any "bolt on" modification solution that can be found. I don't mind spending the money to R&D this because ultimately I could potential profit from a solution.
    I like what you said about the bushings, I'm assuming that would apply to me as well with an E92?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I had briefly considered seeing if HPF would work with Chassis Engineering in Florida to come up with a "bolt in" live axle solution, but given the limited market for such a product the idea kinda fizzled as quickly as I thought about it. If I decide to go "all out" as a drag car, I would probably work with Chassis Engineering though to come up with a solution.
    Exactly, and quite correct. The only person who would use it would be... you. The BMW aftermarket really isn't all that hardcore especially on newer platforms.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    GTR? Gallardo TT? ZR-1? Z06? Viper?
    Just like a M3.. you don't see many of these on the track every Friday night either.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Just like a M3.. you don't see many of these on the track every Friday night either.
    But they can be capable on both the strip and the roadcourse.

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    Mike R's E36 puts down 900whp and it ran mid 9's. Hes running a BMW IRS, ive spoken to him and it seems like the only way to keep these cars together at the track is with big soft tires, rubber bushings etc.... Hes done some diff reinforcing, drivfeshaft mods and axle mods as well.

  9. #34
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    A ford 9 inch would be a great rear end of choice, hell even a ford 8.8 inch is plenty. These turbo inline 6s dont launch hard off the line trust me, you want to see hard; watch a nitrous 410 stroker leave the line cutting 1.3 60 foots all day long. And those can be done on an 8.8 housing with 31 spline mosers or strange engineering axles choose your pick. Either way I agree with ccykes, if you want to come off the line without crying little a girl inside each time you drop the clutch you might want to go with a ford rear end.


    Either that, or spend lots of money trying to keep the stock BMW geometry and optimize it for the strip.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Mike R's E36 puts down 900whp and it ran mid 9's. Hes running a BMW IRS, ive spoken to him and it seems like the only way to keep these cars together at the track is with big soft tires, rubber bushings etc.... Hes done some diff reinforcing, drivfeshaft mods and axle mods as well.
    Launching on bias-ply is easier on the driveline, don't know why no E46 has run true slicks.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Launching on bias-ply is easier on the driveline, don't know why no E46 has run true slicks.
    Smallest size a slick comes in is 16" I believe. I don't think a 16" wheel will clear the OEM back brakes.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Smallest size a slick comes in is 16" I believe. I don't think a 16" wheel will clear the OEM back brakes.
    17" from Mickey Thompson is the smallest.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I have ran them in 17's. I tried them on the street for awhile, they were not good. Needs lots of heating, was a little squirly (Ps2 radial 19's up front). But this might be the tire I try for the 1/4. It may be possible to find a 16'' wheel that will fit in the rear. We have to do some research and trial/error. The rear stock rotor size is 12.9 inches.

    They were definitely shorter then the MT ET Street Radial II I have on the car now. And the tires I have right now are amazing for the street, they stick hard. But for the track I think the below tire might do the job. Deflated they might wrinkle well enough for a launch that will absorb all the stress.

    MT ET Street 26X11.50-17

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    I have ran them in 17's. I tried them on the street for awhile, they were not good. Needs lots of heating, was a little squirly (Ps2 radial 19's up front). But this might be the tire I try for the 1/4. It may be possible to find a 16'' wheel that will fit in the rear. We have to do some research and trial/error. The rear stock rotor size is 29.6 inches.

    MT ET Street 26X11.50-17

    http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/tazavik/mt3.jpg

    http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/tazavik/mt4.jpg
    It was squerly because you had a radial up front. Bias-ply is not as stable at high speed as a radial anyway.

    Those are the tires I plan to run on the strip though, when hot they should grip incredibly insanely well. If not, I'll have to modify the rear brakes and go with a 15 or 16.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    17" from Mickey Thompson is the smallest.
    That's not a slick and the sidewall isn't big enough. For 900+ RWHP you need a good 15" wrinkle wall.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    That's not a slick and the sidewall isn't big enough. For 900+ RWHP you need a good 15" wrinkle wall.
    Why wouldn't it be a slick? 17", bias-ply: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MTT-3743/

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    That's not a slick and the sidewall isn't big enough. For 900+ RWHP you need a good 15" wrinkle wall.
    The only real facts we have in comparison to this is our E36 brothers.

    They have ran 9's with 16'' setups. The 16" tire size they use is actually comparable to a 17'' tire we can put in our fender (since our fender is larger). I have a 27+ inch tire on my car right now, that is pretty large. So were not far off with the 17'' setup. You don't need a 15'' wheel.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    The only real facts we have in comparison to this is our E36 brothers.

    They have ran 9's with 16'' setups. The 16" tire size they use is actually comparable to a 17'' tire we can put in our fender (since our fender is larger). I have a 27+ inch tire on my car right now, that is pretty large. So were not far off with the 17'' setup. You don't need a 15'' wheel.
    You don't need a 15" inch wheel technically but he has a point about the sidewall, the flex is key to a good launch.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You don't need a 15" inch wheel technically but he has a point about the sidewall, the flex is key to a good launch.
    Of course. Someone needs to be dedicated to the track for this to happen...

    Remove rear brakes and try to fit some non m brakes. Find 15'' wheels, put slicks on it. Get skinnies up front. Axles, driveshaft and diff reinforcement and you should be good to go.

  20. #45
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    OP you can do et
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    The only real facts we have in comparison to this is our E36 brothers.

    They have ran 9's with 16'' setups. The 16" tire size they use is actually comparable to a 17'' tire we can put in our fender (since our fender is larger). I have a 27+ inch tire on my car right now, that is pretty large. So were not far off with the 17'' setup. You don't need a 15'' wheel.
    Hoosier tires makes a 28/10-17 in a true drag slick tire. Are you pretty restricted to your 27's?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    Hoosier tires makes a 28/10-17 in a true drag slick tire. Are you pretty restricted to your 27's?
    Ya 28"s are not going to fit. My 27.2" tires are barely fitting.

  23. #48
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    Wow...I feel like an old guy now.

    2006 - First E46 with a real "drag tire". 1.7 second 60ft times.
    2007 - First E46 to "tub" the rear wheel well
    2008 - First E46 with all solid engine, drivetrain, and suspension bushings
    2009 - First E46 to run 1.6 second 60 ft times

    The guy that built my 14 point cage has a car that runs low 1.3s, and I've recently had a chance to compare his launch data to mine. In the first 30 ft we're even, but then my torque fell off over 5500 RPM and I shifted to 2nd 40ft out. So in theory, I know what a 1.3 second "launch" feels like. And to date, I've never seen anyone twist the output flanges on a BMW diff the way that the 330Ci did. Also, every BMW I've seen run 1.6 or faster 60fts has had substantially more power; double in most cases.

    I credit the tire (16" wheels, MT ET Streets, and 12 PSI), suspension, and bushings being a big part of my launch.

    Did I break stuff? Yup. But there's just no other way to figure this stuff out. The professional race team that I crewed on from 2006 to 2008 had 10 times more diff, halfshaft, and transmission problems than I did...and probably the rest of the "BMW drag racing crowd" put together. And stuff never seemed to fail much when testing...it always seemed to be at the worst time. (I've got in car video of some really bad scenarios) What I'm getting at is that we can discuss this stuff till we're blue, build and street drive it for years, but the race track will kick your ass.

    Running a 2 step/ Anti-lag may sound cool in the driveway, but until the rest of the drivetrain and chassis can be addressed, it's playing with fire.

    Chassis? Subframe mounting points? Nope. One part of my car that we put a bit of time into was the rear trailing arm "buckets". They will actually tear out if you run solid bushings ect. for very long. And then there's the bracket that holds the rear trailing arm into the "bucket". Have a good look at them if you get a chance. They are a stamped steel piece that is spot welded. They don't like solid bushings either. Back to the bucket: We actually cut through the rear seat area and tied them directly into my roll cage.

    BTW, I bought a 4 link rear end last spring. Has anyone seen my 330Ci lately? Click here to enlarge

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Wow...I feel like an old guy now.

    2006 - First E46 with a real "drag tire". 1.7 second 60ft times.
    2007 - First E46 to "tub" the rear wheel well
    2008 - First E46 with all solid engine, drivetrain, and suspension bushings
    2009 - First E46 to run 1.6 second 60 ft times

    The guy that built my 14 point cage has a car that runs low 1.3s, and I've recently had a chance to compare his launch data to mine. In the first 30 ft we're even, but then my torque fell off over 5500 RPM and I shifted to 2nd 40ft out. So in theory, I know what a 1.3 second "launch" feels like. And to date, I've never seen anyone twist the output flanges on a BMW diff the way that the 330Ci did. Also, every BMW I've seen run 1.6 or faster 60fts has had substantially more power; double in most cases.

    I credit the tire (16" wheels, MT ET Streets, and 12 PSI), suspension, and bushings being a big part of my launch.

    Did I break stuff? Yup. But there's just no other way to figure this stuff out. The professional race team that I crewed on from 2006 to 2008 had 10 times more diff, halfshaft, and transmission problems than I did...and probably the rest of the "BMW drag racing crowd" put together. And stuff never seemed to fail much when testing...it always seemed to be at the worst time. (I've got in car video of some really bad scenarios) What I'm getting at is that we can discuss this stuff till we're blue, build and street drive it for years, but the race track will kick your ass.

    Running a 2 step/ Anti-lag may sound cool in the driveway, but until the rest of the drivetrain and chassis can be addressed, it's playing with fire.

    Chassis? Subframe mounting points? Nope. One part of my car that we put a bit of time into was the rear trailing arm "buckets". They will actually tear out if you run solid bushings ect. for very long. And then there's the bracket that holds the rear trailing arm into the "bucket". Have a good look at them if you get a chance. They are a stamped steel piece that is spot welded. They don't like solid bushings either. Back to the bucket: We actually cut through the rear seat area and tied them directly into my roll cage.

    BTW, I bought a 4 link rear end last spring. Has anyone seen my 330Ci lately? Click here to enlarge
    Nice to see you here again Click here to enlarge You need to put up more details on your car. You have an M54 section now so no excuses Click here to enlarge

  25. #50
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    Your work is a testament to how hard it is to do it on an E46....

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