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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Trying to think of advantages over a spacer block from a cost/benefit perspective. Better injector angle, no cylinder one bump maybe, dunno. Need more info.
    Looks like the cylinder one bump is still there:
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    True, but you get my point. I'd rather have a turbo that makes 640whp and is spooled at 3.5Krpms than one that makes 650whp but doesn't spool until after 4Krpms.
    Yeah, that's why I bought the turbo I did, I completely agree. I'm hoping to actually beat quite a few cars with more peak power than me based off of power curve and weight
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  3. #28
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    Was the post actually read? They have one working prototype, so do the guys at undercover. In order to make more they need 100 people to order, yes that's a one and two zeros. In a year and a half almost we have sold close to 100 sets of N54 turbos. From thst I read they are also using motec to drive it, ie mega bucks. I would love to see this for 850+ WHP cars but we don't have any yet, so honestly 100 people to get this done. Someone could post a billet N54 block and tell everyone it can happen just need 100 orders. Seems like a pipe dream at this point. People still want a simple and effectives solution to the HPFP issues. It's a coming and we won't need 100 orders to mske if happen...Click here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Was the post actually read? They have one working prototype, so do the guys at undercover. In order to make more they need 100 people to order, yes that's a one and two zeros. In a year and a half almost we have sold close to 100 sets of N54 turbos. From thst I read they are also using motec to drive it, ie mega bucks. I would love to see this for 850+ WHP cars but we don't have any yet, so honestly 100 people to get this done. Someone could post a billet N54 block and tell everyone it can happen just need 100 orders. Seems like a pipe dream at this point. People still want a simple and effectives solution to the HPFP issues. It's a coming and we won't need 100 orders to mske if happen...Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, to be honest, I lol'd a little at the 100...I mean sure the mani won't be much, but after injectors, ecu tuning, it's not a cheap upgrade....

    Also though, keep in mind when a fueling upgrade is available more people will get on board with larger turbo upgrades, I'm a lot of people just haven't done anything cause they have no fueling option.

    Can't wait for your upgrade to become available. Are you planning on doing a pre-order system with a build-time similar to turbos or will it be a product you will have immediate availability on depending on stock?
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, to be honest, I lol'd a little at the 100...I mean sure the mani won't be much, but after injectors, ecu tuning, it's not a cheap upgrade....

    Also though, keep in mind when a fueling upgrade is available more people will get on board with larger turbo upgrades, I'm a lot of people just haven't done anything cause they have no fueling option.

    Can't wait for your upgrade to become available. Are you planning on doing a pre-order system with a build-time similar to turbos or will it be a product you will have immediate availability on depending on stock?
    We are going to fully test the system on our shop car and post results once we have them. We may very well do a waiting list at that point, but no details about the system will be released until we feel it is production ready.

  6. #31
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    Said this on E90..... How could anyone justify this mod if it's gonna require a Motec (assuming the M800) which goes for ~$5k, some sensors/additional fuel lines/injectors + tuning (closer to $10k now), on a car that you can buy $15-20k.

    Basically if you were to mod a car from scratch with this manifold (to make it worthwhile), you're looking at a $15k car, $5k in basic bolt-ons (FMIC, Flash Tuning Module, Clutch) and ~$10k in Turbo Upgrade (whether it's a ST or Vargas S3s). Prob the cheapest way to get to 700 WHP+ right now, but that's a lot of $$$ upfront for something we're not even sure will work reliably.
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  7. #32
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    It won't require the motec, its just what they had lying around. Terry knows these guys, at least a little bit I've heard him make mention of them. I also know that they haven't tried to make any records with it yet, and at 600 their fuel trims were great, according to what I've gathered. What would this mani cost? 1-2k?
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  8. #33
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    If it can be done & 100% setup for under $3-4k (that's materials, install + tuning), and it's reliable, then there's a shot it works. But no shot they're gonna pick up 100 people with out some more data/results
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    Well, if they had to, they could overnight parts from Japan.
    This will never get old. Repped.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    It won't require the motec, its just what they had lying around. Terry knows these guys, at least a little bit I've heard him make mention of them. I also know that they haven't tried to make any records with it yet, and at 600 their fuel trims were great, according to what I've gathered. What would this mani cost? 1-2k?
    If we could get a single development car at DEFIVFabrication we would be ready to go to production. This isn't a cast part and doesn't require the expensive tooling and manufacturing process that cast pieces do. It's a single block of CNC'd aluminum which could be manufactured practically anywhere. My prototype plate was manufactured in under one week - downtime would certainly be minimal - while we're still in the throes of winter.

    Development cars would receive the part, injectors, controller and the tuning to take full advantage of the turbo and additional fueling, whether it be a JB car, a Procede, a Cobb or even a BT flash.

    I know Rick has spoken to Terry about driving supplemental injectors through the JB itself. With a large portion of single turbo cars already running JB's the additional hardware required would include injectors and perhaps a breakout board that interfaces with the JB.

    For those running other tuning solutions or even ECU flashes there are several options available for driving supplemental fuel injectors that work on other direct injection platforms today. They come in at under 500$, in fact it's easy to see a supplemental fuel system being driven with a similar circuit to the HFS-6 which ramps up PWM cycle along with the PWM of the injectors themselves; this means that tuning the car in is as simple as strapping on the plate, injectors, tapping into the lines and actually hitting the AFR(lambda) targets specified in your maps.

    These plates additionally are designed for extra goodies like port injected nitrous and methanol. The development car at DEFIV will be certainly ready for a record setting spring and summer.

    If you would be interested in talking about the options for supplemental fueling for your car reach out to DEFIV @ 1-682-2DEFIV6 (1-682-233-3486) or email sales@defivfabrication.com.
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  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    If we could get a single development car at DEFIVFabrication we would be ready to go to production. This isn't a cast part and doesn't require the expensive tooling and manufacturing process that cast pieces do. It's a single block of CNC'd aluminum which could be manufactured practically anywhere. My prototype plate was manufactured in under one week - downtime would certainly be minimal - while we're still in the throes of winter.

    Development cars would receive the part, injectors, controller and the tuning to take full advantage of the turbo and additional fueling, whether it be a JB car, a Procede, a Cobb or even a BT flash.

    I know Rick has spoken to Terry about driving supplemental injectors through the JB itself. With a large portion of single turbo cars already running JB's the additional hardware required would include injectors and perhaps a breakout board that interfaces with the JB.

    For those running other tuning solutions or even ECU flashes there are several options available for driving supplemental fuel injectors that work on other direct injection platforms today. They come in at under 500$, in fact it's easy to see a supplemental fuel system being driven with a similar circuit to the HFS-6 which ramps up PWM cycle along with the PWM of the injectors themselves; this means that tuning the car in is as simple as strapping on the plate, injectors, tapping into the lines and actually hitting the AFR(lambda) targets specified in your maps.

    These plates additionally are designed for extra goodies like port injected nitrous and methanol. The development car at DEFIV will be certainly ready for a record setting spring and summer.

    If you would be interested in talking about the options for supplemental fueling for your car reach out to DEFIV @ 1-682-2DEFIV6 (1-682-233-3486) or email sales@defivfabrication.com.
    I can +1 this. If you want to go PI, get your car over to rick and let him work it out, the option on the table will be good for the platform. But I cannot see it being anywhere close to $500, you have the plate, then 6 injectors, then a controller on top of it all, that's easily $1500-2000 range without sneezing. But I still say, someone bring Rick a damn car...Click here to enlarge

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I can +1 this. If you want to go PI, get your car over to rick and let him work it out, the option on the table will be good for the platform. But I cannot see it being anywhere close to $500, you have the plate, then 6 injectors, then a controller on top of it all, that's easily $1500-2000 range without sneezing. But I still say, someone bring Rick a damn car...Click here to enlarge
    The controller is under 500$ (I've seen between 250$-350$) ;P Not the full kit. Want to take the cross-country road trip?
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  13. #38
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    The answer to direct injection fueling limitations/issues may be... combining port injection? KS Tuned/Kaizenspeed BMW N54 port injection manifold

    Those familiar with BMW N54 six-cylinder tuning know that the platform has been held back from achieving its maximum potential by the fueling system. Many turbocharger upgrades from dual to single solutions are available but if you can't get enough fuel into the motor what is the point of having a big turbo? The HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) for the direct injection system has a reputation of providing fueling headaches (or failing altogether) even at modest power levels.


    Click here to enlarge

    With direct injection the high pressure needed to inject large amounts of fuel in a short window (that gets smaller as revs go up) requires some seriously powerful fuel pumps. Thus far in the time the N54 motor has been the market (which is approaching a decade) no tuner has delivered a fully functional direct injection HPFP or LPFP solution to support the largest turbo options.

    It isn't easy (and tuners are working on making it happen with the direct injection system) but some are going outside the direct injection fuel system altogether. That is what you see here from KS Tuned / Kaizenspeed. Their solution is a port injection manifold which supplies extra fuel. Some may call this a band-aid or not a proper solution but if it works it certainly is much better than no solution at all.

    Keep in mind there are cars on the market that use both port and direct injection successfully. The most obvious example is the Toyota 86 platform which is produced by Subaru as the BRZ model and Toyota as the Scion FR-S. This chassis uses a Subaru designed 2.0 liter four-cylinder motor known as the FA20.

    Direct injection allows a fairly high 12.5:1 compression ratio thanks to the cylinder cooling effects as well as a leaner tune for fuel efficiency. Working in conjunction with the direct injection system four 205 cc Denso port injectors that supply additional fuel. Essentially a balance between a fuel efficiency design and enough fuel to make power is struck. This same sort of solution may be the answer for the N54.

    The problem though is what will control the additional injectors and coordinate with the direct injection system on the N54? Pro-Efi announced over a year ago they were working on this yet thus far no positive results have been shown. CP-E (Custom Performance Engineering) is also working on a port injection solution. Additionally, Defiv is also working on hardware for a port injection system. The problem wont' be the hardware here as much as the tuning to get a system never designed with a dual injection fuel system in mind to function.

    Does KS Tuned have the answer? We will have to wait and see. Making a computer model is easy, applying a design in real life is something else entirely. At lest we know more people are working on the N54 fuel system and eventually a solution will be available. The main question being how long is eventually.

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  14. #39
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    I know there is another car with direct and port injection combined from the factory and I can't think of the damn thing.

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    Toyota 2GR-FSE. That's the one. Wondering if I'm missing another.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The problem wont' be the hardware here as much as the tuning to get a system never designed with a dual injection fuel system in mind to function.
    Port injected gasoline systems won't require sophisticated tuning or expensive drivers to work.

    Basically the N54 ECU is going to have a mapped load/RPM AFR target offset, supplemental injectors will fire proportional to DI duty. The ECU's built in AFR targeting PID control will take over and hit AFR to target just as quickly as with standalone DI. Controllers like the HFS-4 already measure DI as the basis for it's supplemental methanol fueling. Other controllers used by DI platforms for supplemental port injection work the same way.

    The tuning will come in to basically determine two things:
    Based on boost and injector DC - when to start supplying supplemental fuel.
    The relationship to DI Injector duty cycle.

    That is, at 500HP our stock DI fueling system can adequately provide fuel; we want the DI system to remain the primary source of fueling until additional fuel is required. We then might choose to ramp injectors up to 100% when DI rail pressure is nearing its limits, while ensuring that when supplemental injectors are at 100% that the DI system still has some ceiling. Therefore we strike on a solution where the DI system and the supplemental injectors can both be driven by the existing AFR targeting.
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  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Port injected gasoline systems won't require sophisticated tuning or expensive drivers to work.
    It's a question of getting it all to play with the factory electronics and not as much as something that can control port injection. It can be done but it hasn't been done. It sure doesn't seem easy.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Port injected gasoline systems won't require sophisticated tuning or expensive drivers to work.

    Basically the N54 ECU is going to have a mapped load/RPM AFR target offset, supplemental injectors will fire proportional to DI duty. The ECU's built in AFR targeting PID control will take over and hit AFR to target just as quickly as with standalone DI. Controllers like the HFS-4 already measure DI as the basis for it's supplemental methanol fueling. Other controllers used by DI platforms for supplemental port injection work the same way.

    The tuning will come in to basically determine two things:
    Based on boost and injector DC - when to start supplying supplemental fuel.
    The relationship to DI Injector duty cycle.

    That is, at 500HP our stock DI fueling system can adequately provide fuel; we want the DI system to remain the primary source of fueling until additional fuel is required. We then might choose to ramp injectors up to 100% when DI rail pressure is nearing its limits, while ensuring that when supplemental injectors are at 100% that the DI system still has some ceiling. Therefore we strike on a solution where the DI system and the supplemental injectors can both be driven by the existing AFR targeting.
    The DI strategy is more complex than just DI duty cycle. It also varies the fuel pressure dependent upon load, which needs to be factored into the algorithm used to supplement the fuel. In order for the PI reference to be accurate, you would need to monitor DI DC, Dwell time/IPW, and high pressure fuel line pressure. If you ever monitor Inj DC, you will notice that it basically stays right around 60 most of the time IIRC; this is under WOT throughout the entire RPM range. I monitor with the Cobb AP, so either Cobb isn't actually monitoring the DC, or the channel is incorrectly named, or the DME is keeping DC the same but varying PW to meet fuel demands...

    Its fairly complex.
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    IMHO the best way to manage a PI setup is to just spray a volume that leaves the DI system plenty of room to handle precise fuel metering. Basically works like a meth kit.
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    I'd use two banks in semi sequential (1-3-5 & 2-4-6) and start with a strategy to use them continuously based on rpm vs boost. I think if you supplement approximately 30% of the fueling, at least down low, all things would be good. Piggyback trickery would probably be helpful to keep things in line but with a clean enough PI "tune" I don't think is entirely necessary.

    I think the intake is cool but I doubt it will get 100 supporters without more info. Lol

  21. #46
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    Not a bandaid at all considering Toyota uses both PI and DI on their DI-based vehicles.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Not a bandaid at all considering Toyota uses both PI and DI on their DI-based vehicles.
    They designed it that way to begin with though.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They designed it that way to begin with though.
    TROLLING
    Running an oil catch can is a bandaid?
    Going from dual turbo to single twin scroll is a bandaid?
    Switching to colder plugs in a bandaid?
    Running more ignition advance is a bandaid?
    Replacing the clutch is a bandaid?
    Replacing the axles is a bandaid?
    /TROLLING

    On a serious note, what's wrong with bandaids?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    TROLLING
    Running an oil catch can is a bandaid?
    Going from dual turbo to single twin scroll is a bandaid?
    Switching to colder plugs in a bandaid?
    Running more ignition advance is a bandaid?
    Replacing the clutch is a bandaid?
    Replacing the axles is a bandaid?
    /TROLLING

    On a serious note, what's wrong with bandaids?
    Well basically band-aids do not fix anything, they just cover it up. A band aid approach is a term used for something that will work, but its not ideal. Its like putting a band-aid on a cut that needs stitches. Hence the term band-aid approach. PI is not superior to DI so covering up the fueling problem with PI instead of fixing the problem with a DI solution is the perfect definition of a band-aid. But hey band-aids sure come in handy when you are bleeding all over the place, which is basically the current state of our HPFP fueling problems

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Well basically band-aids do not fix anything, they just cover it up. A band aid approach is a term used for something that will work, but its not ideal. Its like putting a band-aid on a cut that needs stitches. Hence the term band-aid approach. PI is not superior to DI so covering up the fueling problem with PI instead of fixing the problem with a DI solution is the perfect definition of a band-aid. But hey band-aids sure come in handy when you are bleeding all over the place, which is basically the current state of our HPFP fueling problems
    Yeah, but at least with PI by intake valves will stay clean!
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