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  1. #1
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    Does BMW need to respond to Audi and Mercedes with a higher powered and M built N20 motor? 350+ horsepower S20 engine for a 2015 F22 M2?

    The Germans are fighting a horsepower war on all fronts. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche are all going at it with their respective twin turbo and direct injected V8's. BMW fired a volley at Audi/VW with their N20 2.0 liter turbo four-cylinder which has taken home two straight International Engine of the Year Awards in the 1.8 to 2.0 liter category. The N20 is so good one of the judges claimed, "Someday someone will engineer a better 2-litre turbo than BMW's, but I'm not going to hold my breath."

    Click here to enlarge

    Well, somebody did engineer a better 2 liter turbo and that somebody was Mercedes AMG with their 355 horsepower 2.0 liter M133 engine. Volkswagen poached the engineer responsible for the Mercedes M133 engine and is tasking him with besting it. A 375+ horsepower 2.0 liter turbo is in the works over at Audi.

    That leaves BMW on the sideline with their N20 which was quickly and easily superceded by both Mercedes and Audi before anyone could even blink. Does BMW need to respond to the challenge? Mercedes is using the M133 motor in their 45 AMG models and Volkswagen and Audi are both preparing models with their new high powered four-cylinder.

    Mercedes, Audi, and Volkswagen will all have four-cylinder cars that out perform the BMW M235i with its N55 six-cylinder. Isn't now the perfect time to create an F22 M2 model? Wouldn't an M built N20, an S20 engine, be the perfect choice?

    The M235i does not have a DCT option. Imagine if BMW built the M2 with a 375 horsepower S20, gave it a DCT, and then think about how this would be the closest model to ever be a spiritual successor to the E30 M3.

    The argument of course will be that the N55 motor can put out more power as it is a larger six-cylinder. The counterpoint would be that then an M2 would not have a real M motor (the 1M fiasco all over again) and it would step on the toes of the M4 big brother with just a tune. An M2 with a four-cylinder, M4 with a six-cylinder, and an M6 with an eight-cylinder just fits very neatly.

    A four-cylinder would also be lighter and could be placed further back in the chassis for better handling balance. The M2 with such a motor would then beat its rivals where it matters, in the actual driving experience offering rear wheel drive and higher fun factor. Isn't that what a BMW M car is supposed to be? Additionally, the motor would not be able to out-power the M3/M4 keeping those owners happy just as the M3/M4 is not able to eclipse the M5/M6 maintaining the hierarchy.

    If BimmerBoost were in charge of BMW this engine and car would already be on the drawing boards. It just makes too much sense not to do it. The problem is BMW seems more interested in plastic electric cars than competing with real driving machines.
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  2. #2
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    100% definitely not going to be happening. It would be awesome, but won't happen.

  3. #3
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    Why 100%?
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    good point on bmw being more focus on plastic electric cars then competing with the german rivals

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    I'm not sure BMW is interested in the direct competition with Audi and Merc. Look at the M3/M4. They lost 2 cylinders and added 2 turbos knowing that the C63 AMG was keeing thier V8 and adding 2 turbos to that. If they were that concerned with the compeitition there would be a TT V8 in the F82 M4.

    While I agree a 375HP I4T in an M2 sounds fantastic, It's not really looking like they're all that interested in a 2 series M car.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I'm not sure BMW is interested in the direct competition with Audi and Merc. Look at the M3/M4. They lost 2 cylinders and added 2 turbos knowing that the C63 AMG was keeing thier V8 and adding 2 turbos to that. If they were that concerned with the compeitition there would be a TT V8 in the F82 M4.

    While I agree a 375HP I4T in an M2 sounds fantastic, It's not really looking like they're all that interested in a 2 series M car.
    But BMW lightened the crap out of it and gave it a DCT. It's not going to be behind the C63 just like the current M3 isn't (before Merc added the P31) while at the same time being better on the track.
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    Right but you're saying since Merc and VAG have I4T BMW needs an I4T. I'm not sure BMW would see it that way. I really hope they do and an I4T makes sense to me, I'm just saying that just because Merc has an I4T in the AMG doesn't mean that BMW will follow suit. They didn't with the F82 M4, they went their own direction.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    But BMW lightened the crap out of it and gave it a DCT. It's not going to be behind the C63 just like the current M3 isn't (before Merc added the P31) while at the same time being better on the track.
    2011 335is DCT, collecting parts....


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    Dumb to put a I4 into a chassis designed to accept an I6.

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    @maxnix so the E30 M3 was dumb?

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    Well I suppose it's also dumb to put a S65 into e9x chassis seeing how it was designed for a I6
    Oh... the S85... forget it, E60s only had V8s or I6s
    What were they thinking?

  11. #11
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Right but you're saying since Merc and VAG have I4T BMW needs an I4T. I'm not sure BMW would see it that way. I really hope they do and an I4T makes sense to me, I'm just saying that just because Merc has an I4T in the AMG doesn't mean that BMW will follow suit. They didn't with the F82 M4, they went their own direction.
    I'm saying BMW already has an I4 turbo motor and an S version of it in the M2 would slot in perfectly against the rest of the lineup. It really makes a ton of logical sense to me.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    Dumb to put a I4 into a chassis designed to accept an I6.
    The chassis already comes with an I4 what are you talking about?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boostedmaserati Click here to enlarge
    @maxnix so the E30 M3 was dumb?
    +1 billion
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  14. #14
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    I think it's a great idea. If they could get it nice and light and with the flares from the 2 series race car I think it would be a winner.

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    If they got it even lighter than the M235i by say 150 pounds and better balanced I don't see how this wouldn't be a big winner .
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    The S20 seems to be the most logical step for BMW to be taking in response to the M133 from the CLA45 AMG and new 375 Hp engine from Audi supposedly slotted for the S3+ (and Golf R Evo or whatever it will be called). I think the most likely way the cost savings will come and still allow us enthusiasts to get a great engine is to integrate the new technology from the I3 in the i8 and the S55 from the new M3/4. However, I think your 370hp estimate is a slight bit high (even though I'd love to see that from the start); i'm thinking 355-365 then maybe a "performance pack" mid cycle that bumps it up towards 370-380 once the next M3/4 is beginning development (and current gen has had the competition pack introduced). My reasoning is that I believe BMW is now beginning to leave the horsepower war and putting their bets on carbon fiber as the future of performance and the "dynamic driving" experience. From what ive read, it looks like a switch to an "S20" would save around 30 lbs compared to going with the N55 and add on top of that weight savings as a result of aluminum and carbon fiber body panels and we could be looking at overall weight reduction from the M235i of 180-200 lbs. No doubt if we start to see that kind of weight reduction we are going to be looking at a special car if the rumors about the steering feel of the EPS in the new M3/M4 are true.

  17. #17
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rppwm3 Click here to enlarge
    The S20 seems to be the most logical step for BMW to be taking in response to the M133 from the CLA45 AMG and new 375 Hp engine from Audi supposedly slotted for the S3+ (and Golf R Evo or whatever it will be called).
    That's my line of thinking as well.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rppwm3 Click here to enlarge
    My reasoning is that I believe BMW is now beginning to leave the horsepower war and putting their bets on carbon fiber as the future of performance and the "dynamic driving" experience.
    What they should have been focusing on all along instead of just taking the AMG approach.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rppwm3 Click here to enlarge
    it looks like a switch to an "S20" would save around 30 lbs compared to going with the N55 and add on top of that weight savings as a result of aluminum and carbon fiber body panels and we could be looking at overall weight reduction from the M235i of 180-200 lbs. No doubt if we start to see that kind of weight reduction we are going to be looking at a special car if the rumors about the steering feel of the EPS in the new M3/M4 are true.
    I like your thinking.
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    I would love to see BMW pull out all the stops with a hi-po I4T. Maybe in a few years we could find some used ones and mount them in our pedestrian 328isClick here to enlarge)

  19. #19
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    I wonder if BMW will come out with a all new motor that replaces the n55. The n54/n55 are due for a update. The n55 is 4 years old already. A s20 would be a logical choice but I wouldn't be surprised if a completely new engine is in the works.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I wonder if BMW will come out with a all new motor that replaces the n55. The n54/n55 are due for a update. The n55 is 4 years old already. A s20 would be a logical choice but I wouldn't be surprised if a completely new engine is in the works.
    An S20 wouldn't be a replacement for the N55 though.
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    I know...I'm saying maybe they will debut a new 6 cylinder made for the m2. IMO, there is no reason why the m2 won't be a mainstream m car and sell the same or more amount of cars for BMW as the m3/m4
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I know...I'm saying maybe they will debut a new 6 cylinder made for the m2. IMO, there is no reason why the m2 won't be a mainstream m car and sell the same or more amount of cars for BMW as the m3/m4
    The reason for not doing a new M six-cylinder is because of the reasons already mentioned. Plus you'd have another M motor that isn't the S55 so two M six cylinders at once? It doesn't make any sense. A detuned S55 would make more sense in that case.

    The N55 doesn't really need much of anything. It's filling its role well very well so if they need anything else out of it I bet it would just come with software.
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    Yea your right.... the S55 already fills that void and having two 6 cylinder m cars would be silly.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    While it'd be great to see an S20, I don't think it's gonna happen.
    It's just not reasonable to offer a smaller displacement engine on an M car since BMW offers an N55 235 that could easily outperform the M car with a simple remap.

    Many would then tell me: you could also tune the S20.
    Well, IMHO there wouldn't be much juice left on such a high performance engine unless bmw goes big turbo but it'd compromise low end torque.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marcoac14 Click here to enlarge
    It's just not reasonable to offer a smaller displacement engine on an M car since BMW offers an N55 235 that could easily outperform the M car with a simple remap.
    This argument didn't work with the E30 M3. Why should it work now unless M is now all about the straightline?
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