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  1. #1
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    STFT issues on 93 pump

    Is this normal for my stft to max out so early in the rpm range. I'm trying to chase down this misfire issue and need help with the next step. So far I have replaced the precat O2 sensors, low pressure fuel sensor, all fuel injectors, new coils and spark plugs, and walnut blasted was done last year. No codes either so I'm at a lost.

    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1-25-14-logs?log=0
    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1-25-14-logs?log=1
    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1-25-14-logs?log=2

    Mod list: AFE intake, ER cp w/ Tial bov, AA dps, AA intercooler, Cobb w/ PTF protune.
    Last edited by bigtigga01; 01-27-2014 at 02:55 PM.

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    You need to reset your lambda adaptations using INPA.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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    I hate using datazap. Is your LPFP pressure dropping at all? That will cause it if it's under around 50. Mine did on pump with a bad LPFP.

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    why do you hate using it?
    335xi (sold)
    www.datazap.me - fast, free, interactive datalogs

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    I have reset the adaptations before only to have the problem come back after a day or so. My lpfp never gets lower than 68psi and I would have to log the hpfp, but I don't have any cel fuel codes.

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    Pretty sure I told you this over on E90, we need a complete set of fueling related data, specifically your Low & High Fuel Pump Pressure, the Target AFR & Actual AFR. Your AFR recovers after your fuel pressure returns to normal, I'm going to assume either the pumps aren't achieve the mid-range fueling demands or your injectors need to be replaced (I had the same problem).
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Benzy,

    Do you mind explaining what it looked like when your injectors needed to be replaced? I.e. what was off, etc. etc.

  8. #8
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigtigga01 Click here to enlarge
    Is this normal for my stft to max out so early in the rpm range. I'm trying to chase down this misfire issue and need help with the next step. So far I have replaced the precat O2 sensors, low pressure fuel sensor, all fuel injectors, new coils and spark plugs, and walnut blasted was done last year. No codes either so I'm at a lost.

    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1-25-14-logs?log=0
    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1-25-14-logs?log=1
    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1-25-14-logs?log=2

    Mod list: AFE intake, ER cp w/ Tial bov, AA dps, AA intercooler, Cobb w/ PTF protune.
    You're probably getting lean misfires or something. Your STFT's should never go over 20 IMO, but if they max out for just a fraction of a second it's usually OK if the AFR is reasonable. Your STFT's max and stay maxed and your AFR is very lean. Most likely your HPFP is going out, but I can't say because the fuel pressure isn't listed.

    It's nice you did all that work but your issue is probably fuel delivery related. Any log that looks like this usually is, but it's impossible to tell without fuel pressure traces. FWIW- your log looks like somebody running too much E85 for the pumps to handle. Low RPM is a tricky place for the HPFP.

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    What parameters should I log with the cobb? I'm guessing the same as if I was logging for e85. I can say that my lpfp doesn't drop below 68psi but what is the minimum psi for the hpfp. I want be careful doing logs because with those afr and the misfires I don't want to do more harm to the engine. Also the fuel injectors were replaced this past weekend and the adaptations reset afterwards.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    Benzy,

    Do you mind explaining what it looked like when your injectors needed to be replaced? I.e. what was off, etc. etc.
    I had perfect fuel pressure on both Low & High sides but the midrange AFR was always lean (~14). It happened on both the COBB 93 PROtune + Stock Replica Map, so we knew it was something mechanical. Tested the car for boost leaks & WG problems, both were 100%.

    Finally (~5 weeks) BMW decided to check the injectors. All of them were from 2008 and 3 out of the 6 were performing out of spec. Replaced all 6 instead of riding out the old ones, car has run flawless since then.
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  11. #11
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigtigga01 Click here to enlarge
    What parameters should I log with the cobb?
    Glad I wrote some length, worthwhile response and the bull$#@! editing time frame expired. Try this again.... Datalog:
    1. STFT (Bank 1)
    2. STFT (Bank 2)
    3. LTFT (Bank 1)
    4. LTFT (Bank 2)
    5. Fuel HPFP Requested
    6. Fuel HPFP Actual
    7. Fuel LPFP Requested
    8. Fuel LPFP Actual
    9. Lambda (Bank 1)
    10. Lambda (Bank 2)
    11. Lambda Requested (Bank 1)
    12. Lambda Requested (Bank 2)
    13. RPM
    14. TPS Actual
    15. Load Requested
    16. Load Actual
    17. Timing Correction Cylinders 2-5 (Pick 1, I don't like to Log off the "ends")
    18. Timing Cylinders 2-5 (Pick a different one that you used for Timing Corrections)
    19. WGDC
    20. Boost


    That should use all your channels. #s 1-12 are the most important. What we really need to do is compare your Target (Requested) values against the Actual and see what's off. Obviously we know the AFR is off, but the Target value is correct because you return to a solid high 11/low 12 AFR when the Fuel Trims recover (Ruling out an O2 Failure). If either of your fuel pumps are dying, we'll see a HUGE difference between the Requested and Actual Fuel Pressures. You didn't list a LPFP Upgrade (the Walbro In-Line or Bucket Replacement), so the only fault I could see on that end is the OEM LPFP is dying.


    Like @V8Bait said, a health car should have LTFTs near 0 and the STFTs sub-20 (lower if you've got an upgraded LPFP). Get some new data logs and post up. If you could, I find it easier to compare this data in an Excel (view the Requested vs. Actual data right next to each other), so if you could Zip the file and post it up.


    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  12. #12
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    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/12714-log


    Benzy, thanks for the list. I did this log tonight before I saw your post. I used the e85 parameters from cobbs website.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  13. #13
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    When you reset the lambda adaptations - did you use INPA? I've seen this issue a handful of times, it's always wacky learned fuel trims that are to blame, and using INPA seems to be the only thing that works consistently to fix it.

    your fuel pressures all look great.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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  14. #14
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    Yea, your Low & High fuel pressure seems spot on (meeting or within range of the target). Def try to get another log but your AFR is hideous, like 20 from 3.2 to 4k Click here to enlarge


    Were the injectors properly coded when they were installed?
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  15. #15
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    Take a look at this datalog. Look familiar?

    http://www.datazap.me/u/lulzm3/e60-o...-16&zoom=25-66

    Exact same behavior your car is exhibiting. LTFT's & STFT's are fighting each other. Under WOT, your LTFT's are pulling out as much fuel as possible, while your STFT's are attempting to add as much fuel as possible.


    Now, take a look at this datalog.

    http://www.datazap.me/u/lulzm3/e60-p...21&zoom=33-102

    Everything is back to normal after resetting all fuel/lambda adaptations using INPA.

    This is an E60 535 that had been running a heavy E85 mixture, but switched back to pump 93 and installed a meth kit. I highly suggest anyone who is switching between ethanol mixtures perform the INPA fuel adaptation resets between fuel source changes. As you can see, things get ugly quick.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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  16. #16
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Take a look at this datalog. Look familiar?

    http://www.datazap.me/u/lulzm3/e60-o...-16&zoom=25-66

    Exact same behavior your car is exhibiting. LTFT's & STFT's are fighting each other. Under WOT, your LTFT's are pulling out as much fuel as possible, while your STFT's are attempting to add as much fuel as possible.


    Now, take a look at this datalog.

    http://www.datazap.me/u/lulzm3/e60-p...21&zoom=33-102

    Everything is back to normal after resetting all fuel/lambda adaptations using INPA.

    This is an E60 535 that had been running a heavy E85 mixture, but switched back to pump 93 and installed a meth kit. I highly suggest anyone who is switching between ethanol mixtures perform the INPA fuel adaptation resets between fuel source changes. As you can see, things get ugly quick.
    I was just about to say why are LTFT's tanking while STFT's are spiking? That makes no sense to me at all. STFT's are based on AFR and calculated like 50 times a second or something, LTFT is *supposed* to be based on STFT and change progressively and slower, but in the same direction, so as to lower STFT to maintain a usable range. So STFT should go down when LTFT goes up, not vice versa. That's OP's issue 100% and as to the why, I have no idea but I'll go with @lulz_m3 for his answer.

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    yep, very strange... seen this a couple times, but not to this degree I think. OP i'd be curious to see a log at various loads/throttle for a similar rpm range. And remove some of the timing channels, replacing with load req/act and both throttles. Can take out boost factor also.

    As others have said only known solution is to reset LTFT through INPA.

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    Now that the weather is good I took some logs on Cobb stage 0. Log 16 is at idle and 17 and 18 are full runs. I reset all adaptations using inpa and tomorrow I will switch to stage 2+ and post logs. Thanks to everyone for the help and information and hopefully my problem has been resolved.

    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1...g=1&data=2-8-9

    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1...-20&zoom=6-122

    http://www.datazap.me/u/bigtigga01/1...-20&zoom=8-128
    Attached Files Attached Files

  19. #19
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    OP: how did it turn out? Did resetting lambda through INPA give you a lasting solution? I have the same problem and will be trying this today. Thanks!
    2008 E90 335xi AT 57K MILES
    MHD CUSTOM E50, N20 TMAP, FUEL-IT STG 2 LPFP, cPE CHARGE PIPE, HELIX IC, FORGE DV, BMS DCI, BMS T-STAT DELETE, BMS OCC, RB PCV, KW-V1 COILOVERS, APEX ARC-8, 235/265 MICHELIN PSS, ALPINA B3 TCU, SCOOPS
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jeffman Click here to enlarge
    OP: how did it turn out? Did resetting lambda through INPA give you a lasting solution? I have the same problem and will be trying this today. Thanks!
    Yes it did. I haven't had an issue since I reset with inpa. Good luck and I hope the reset resolves your issues too.

  21. #21
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    Resetting through BT gave me a lasting solution too.

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    Im having a sort of similar issue right now and think it may have to due with me constantly running anywhere from e85 to e40 then switching to regular 91 octane last Saturday then back to e40 on Monday. Car ran fine on monday, left it at my folks house. Went to start it on Wednesday and it was running like crap. Didn't make it out of the neighborhood before it almost stalled. Drove back to my folks and started logging. Whenever it almost stalls my STFT go max negative, my AFR goes way rich and the idle will then go up and down to try and smooth things out.

    At first I thought maybe something went wrong with my walbro inline install so I checked it, everything looked ok. I removed the walbro just to be sure and the car runs the same. Not getting and CEL's or codes. I'm in the proceess of getting INPA setup right now and will try resetting all my adaptions in hope it works.

    Datazap logs:

    http://www.datazap.me/u/cdl/135-roug...=0&data=1-9-15

    http://www.datazap.me/u/cdl/135-roug...=1&data=1-8-15

    http://www.datazap.me/u/cdl/135-roug...=2&data=1-8-15

    http://www.datazap.me/u/cdl/135-logs?log=0&data=1-7-14

    Tried changing maps from e40 map to ots e30 map to Stage 1+ drive map with no change in behavior. Also tried reseting ecu with cobb with no luck as well as holding the gas pedal down for a minute with ignition on. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks for any help/advice!



    There's some more vids of it on my channel.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Well thanks to both steveaz for his help and wedge for helping me set up Inpa and resetting my fuel adaptations car is running MUCH better!

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    This is my experience too. I wonder whether E85 usage has caused the injectors to crap out prematurely? How does one use INPA to diagnose injector health?

  25. #25
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    Someone should make a vid how to reset fueling system parameters using INPA. This has become a high demand request

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