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  1. #51
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    This is the same presentation Steve has been making for years. I watched it at Bimmerfest maybe five years ago. There are some truths to what he is saying but the devil is always in the details and he glanced over the various application specific details that allow piggybacks to provide the same or improved reliability compared to their flash tunes.
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  2. #52
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    how does a flash tune require more skill than a piggy?

    Places like dinan are at least sometimes GIVEN control of the ECU by BMW... teh piggy's are custom electrical engineered for the engine, and require FAR more effort to design

    the hardest part about the DME tuning, is getting access in the first place...
    Last edited by Flinchy; 01-23-2014 at 07:27 PM.

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    how does a flash tune require more skill than a piggy?
    Because the tuner needs to really know what the hell they are doing and re-writing the BMW DME's code is harder than relying on the factory DME programming to do the work.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Places like dinan are at least sometimes GIVEN control of the ECU by BMW...
    For Motorsport, yea, for street cars, no.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    the only hard part about the DME tuning, is getting access in the first place...
    If that was true where are the N63 turbo upgrades? Where are the S63 part retrofits?
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Because the tuner needs to really know what the hell they are doing and re-writing the BMW DME's code is harder than relying on the factory DME programming to do the work.



    For Motorsport, yea, for street cars, no.



    If that was true where are the N63 turbo upgrades? Where are the S63 part retrofits?

    The exact same can be said about piggy's.. if the builder doesn't know what to do/the limits, you have a blown/bad running motor.

    if you have to manually hex edit, then yeah that's very difficult, but similar to a lot of modern motors.

    and fair enough if not for street cars lol

    and what do you mean?.. the N63 doesn't have DME access, hence no turbo upgrades?? :/
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    The exact same can be said about piggy's.. if the builder doesn't know what to do/the limits, you have a blown/bad running motor.
    To a degree as you're influencing factory programming, not changing it. Factory DME tuning requires far more skill. It isn't even close honestly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    and what do you mean?.. the N63 doesn't have DME access, hence no turbo upgrades?? :/
    Programming the ECU and full control are two different things. We are just getting to the point now where the S54 can have a factory DME tuned turbo. It takes someone with major skill to pull that off. Plugging in a piggy won't accomplish it.
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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by APC Australia Click here to enlarge
    $30k for a Stroked BMW engine would be reasonable here in Australia lol. I build evo engines that are $35k and 2000hp 2JZ drag engines that are around $80k. You guys have it too good there hahaha
    You could probably build a stroked S54 for <$20-$25k? haha

    $8200 for a 3.4 or 3.5 stroker from VAC.. another $10k in work and misc parts?.. sounds good to me Click here to enlarge

    2000hp for $80k is also pretty cheap imo, and probably similar to over in the states... things like titan motors cost the same no matter where you get them.. that is to say, $$$$$$ haha... 2j's have such a huge following over there though, however the base cars cost way more.... and same for said built evo.. 2.4 stroker or something? those things are stout and make insane power, regularly see 800-900whp out of them, i think $35k for that is also a bargain haha.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    This is the same presentation Steve has been making for years. I watched it at Bimmerfest maybe five years ago. There are some truths to what he is saying but the devil is always in the details and he glanced over the various application specific details that allow piggybacks to provide the same or improved reliability compared to their flash tunes.
    Yeah i find it strange that instead of taking the high road and going for a better product.. he takes the low road and largely baselessly attacks the competition.. because he's losing.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I'll bet money right now that given full DME control, that there's quite a few tuners out there that would blow away Dinan. Hell, the N54 world they already can using the Cobb and that's still not full control.

    Dinan's products are overrated and overpriced. The only thing that it tells me is someone was dumb enough to pay big money for mediocre gains.
    Well the n54 is pretty decently controlled at least? not as full as it could be i guess, yeah, but they're constantly finding/trying to find new tables that are useful at least haha
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    To a degree as you're influencing factory programming, not changing it. Factory DME tuning requires far more skill. It isn't even close honestly.



    Programming the ECU and full control are two different things. We are just getting to the point now where the S54 can have a factory DME tuned turbo. It takes someone with major skill to pull that off. Plugging in a piggy won't accomplish it.
    I can't agree with that, but fair enough.. again with the proviso that manual hex editing is definitely in it's own league of skill... but comparing say JB4 vs cobb tuning, you can't say the JB4 is a simple piece of gear to develop?

    Well, yeah that's true.. even the piggies for the *63 motors aren't fully developed though
    boop

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    Hate piggy back, just tricking you sh!t. Flash or nothing here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    but comparing say JB4 vs cobb tuning, you can't say the JB4 is a simple piece of gear to develop?
    IMO the JB4 is far more simple than flash tuning through Cobb.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Well, yeah that's true.. even the piggies for the *63 motors aren't fully developed though
    They can only be developed to a degree. When you want to get serious you have to flash. N54, N63, whatever. Pluses and minuses.
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  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    IMO the JB4 is far more simple than flash tuning through Cobb.



    They can only be developed to a degree. When you want to get serious you have to flash. N54, N63, whatever. Pluses and minuses.
    to the end user, yes... not necessarily development wise.

    That's true, flashing helps piggy's' progress too.
    boop

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    to the end user, yes... not necessarily development wise.
    It is tougher development wise. You don't even need to know how to flash an ECU to get a piggyback working. Many people who sell them just source the piggybacks and adapt them to the application.

    I'm not saying guys who develop piggybacks can't tune just that a piggyback is an easier approach.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    You could probably build a stroked S54 for <$20-$25k? haha

    $8200 for a 3.4 or 3.5 stroker from VAC.. another $10k in work and misc parts?.. sounds good to me Click here to enlarge

    2000hp for $80k is also pretty cheap imo, and probably similar to over in the states... things like titan motors cost the same no matter where you get them.. that is to say, $$$$$$ haha... 2j's have such a huge following over there though, however the base cars cost way more.... and same for said built evo.. 2.4 stroker or something? those things are stout and make insane power, regularly see 800-900whp out of them, i think $35k for that is also a bargain haha.



    Yeah i find it strange that instead of taking the high road and going for a better product.. he takes the low road and largely baselessly attacks the competition.. because he's losing.




    Well the n54 is pretty decently controlled at least? not as full as it could be i guess, yeah, but they're constantly finding/trying to find new tables that are useful at least haha
    Better still our ones don't go bang haha

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    The only GOOD side is that if the dealer installs it your backed up by them and THATS all you get. I called them for a tune for my DIESEL and they were like deer in head lights. And never came thru for us. ONLY JB RENNtech Evolve and now Ecotune for the US Version Diesel.

  14. #64
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    AFAIK, Dinan will reimburse the dealer and BMW if the issue can be proven to their products- they don't have a warranty via BMW- just a "blind eye" so-to-speak.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Absolutely but even Dinan doesn't have total control of the DME so it's kind of BS. If he did wouldn't his turbo upgrade be out already? What is he waiting for?
    Anyone who breaks the encryption has total control over that DME.

    Dinan is overpriced, but it is conservatively engineered and is warranted. No one else does that.

    And he is 100% correct about native code vs. parasitic piggybacks feeding false sensor readings to the DME.

    Sorry guys, but his company knows more than most of us.

    Who else is supplying engines in DP that supports BMW tuning?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Absolutely but even Dinan doesn't have total control of the DME so it's kind of BS. If he did wouldn't his turbo upgrade be out already? What is he waiting for?
    The problem with tuning diesels is that the OEM emission system is not set up for the heavier loads tuned diesel settings (much richer) put on them.

    Anyone selling you a diesel tune and not telling you that is no being completely honest with you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    Anyone who breaks the encryption has total control over that DME.

    Dinan is overpriced, but it is conservatively engineered and is warranted. No one else does that.

    And he is 100% correct about native code vs. parasitic piggybacks feeding false sensor readings to the DME.

    Sorry guys, but his company knows more than most of us.

    Who else is supplying engines in DP that supports BMW tuning?
    I would argue that you do not have total control over the DME unless you have the source code, or a whitepaper on it. DME does a lot of modeling vs referencing tables, which is why those who are flash tuning still don't have full control.
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    It totally agree with Steve Dinan about the piggybacks. They are just patches, no matter how advance they seem to be, they are way inferior to the logic of properly modified calibration softwares. An example, a piggy back can claim world record hp on Dyno, since a stock DDE/ME/ECU will never allow to exceed engine limitation (but it can be changed!). All this world record dynos w/piggyback, you have to question it in real world varied driving conditions, and long-term testing to ensure consistent drivability and engine durability. And, the worst part... piggyback would just develop exclusively on a chassis Dyno and go straight there to ends customer. For more advanced pigggyback, if check engine lights come on, they would just erase code. It's like it doesnt want you to know the reality what's happening.

    Why I never see ALL piggyback owners leave it on car & take it to service when they have an engine issue caused by installed item? It's because it's like having warranty fraud. Ask, how BMW NA how many engine got caught with failures from a piggyback vs. a properly tuned calibration.

    Piggyback does not compensate to monitor engine ambient air temp, barometric pressure, inlet air temp, A/F from upstream catalyst. And, worst it does not compensate for any thermal management, additional Lambda/spark/knock adaptation, engine oil temp, fuel pump duty cycle, etc. since it "tricks" sensors.

    In the end, ask for more supporting data & peak power Dyno numbers does not always tell the whole story.
    Last edited by LW@MTG; 01-24-2014 at 02:24 PM.

  19. #69
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    Anyone who breaks the encryption has total control over that DME.
    No they don't. The ability to flash the ECU and completely control the ECU are two different things.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No they don't. The ability to flash the ECU and completely control the ECU are two different things.
    I hope you are drinking. Click here to enlarge

    If one can flash the DME, then one has control of the DME. To flash it is to program it, for better or worse. Adding on a system that gives altered sensor reading is not controlling it, only an attempt to fool it. And it only affects the sensor signal intercepted. A flash can alter everything and anything.

  21. #71
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    I hope you are drinking. Click here to enlarge

    If one can flash the DME, then one has control of the DME. To flash it is to program it, for better or worse. Adding on a system that gives altered sensor reading is not controlling it, only an attempt to fool it. And it only affects the sensor signal intercepted. A flash can alter everything and anything.
    Sticky is correct. I'm curious, what kind of experience do you have flash tuning the MSD80/1 DME?
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  22. #72
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    Steve is right on, everything he said Click here to enlarge the thing he needs to change and that I disagree on is pricing..it'd help his business in a big way

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    I hope you are drinking. Click here to enlarge

    If one can flash the DME, then one has control of the DME. To flash it is to program it, for better or worse. Adding on a system that gives altered sensor reading is not controlling it, only an attempt to fool it. And it only affects the sensor signal intercepted. A flash can alter everything and anything.
    You don't know what you're talking about.

    Writing to the ECU does not mean you can do whatever you want with the ECU. We would have had stock DME turbo kits for the E46 M3 the day people could flash the ECU then and that was over 10 years ago.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    However, he also is given full control of those ECU's through BMW Motorsport.
    Steve is claiming in that Smoking Tire podcast posted early today, that Dinan spends $600k on hacking software a year. He has 6 people on his staff that spend all day hacking. He gave an arbitrary time to hack an ecu of half a year.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    Steve is claiming in that Smoking Tire podcast posted early today, that Dinan spends $600k on hacking software a year. He has 6 people on his staff that spend all day hacking. He gave an arbitrary time to hack an ecu of half a year.
    That is absolutely true on the street cars.

    He hires Cal Tech engineers, gives them the best equipment, and just brute forces his way in there.
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