Close

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,726
    Rep Points
    2,462.7
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25


    Reputation: Yes | No

    8000 RPM possible? Long rod + valvetrain bits

    So the N54 is 84.1mm/89.7mm according to what I've read. I know that increasing the piston speed past 25m/s will cause ring sealing issues and I think that 8k is possible by doing the math. I am not familiar with the N54 head AT ALL, nor do I know what kind of lifters or anything that are inside. Question is: with upgraded springs, lifters, etc, could the motor reliably survive 8k? With these big turbo setups, it almost seems a waste to not be able to stretch it out. I know the Direct Injection will have a shorter injection window, but I think we've proven that these injectors can flow a ton as it is. What kind of parts do we have along these lines? Is it possible to raise the rev limiter in the DCT?
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,726
    Rep Points
    2,462.7
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    @Sticky what is m3 dct rev limiter reliably raised to, 8300?
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    @Sticky what is m3 dct rev limiter reliably raised to, 8300?
    It starts at 8400 rpm so you can raise it up from there. I wouldn't go past 9k.

    I assume you saw this:


  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,930
    Rep Points
    921.6
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    10


    Reputation: Yes | No
    I would think you need to shorten the rod a bit to have a good chance, but then you run into angle issues. I still will stick to my guns and say that we will find it will be best to have some upgraded internals to make motor more reliable at 7600 RPM redline with stock compression. Which I think will make it a 800-900 whp car with correct turbo setup. That's not bad at all.

    As it is now, the car only uses a less than 2000 RPM range during a WOT throttle run, so moving the power band up and raising revs just doesn't even seem worth it at this point.



    I know things are getting exciting on this platform, but IMO tuning already has some catching up to do with all the turbo kits coming out let alone start throwing built motors and higher revs into the mix.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    I think the problem people will run into before anything else will be keeping the pistons and rods together when going that high. The undersquare design obviously is made with low end torque in mind and not revs. That is literally why the bore and stroke of the S55 and N55 are flipped.

    The S54 is a high revving undersquare design which is odd to see but BMW also pushed that motor to the limit for Motorsport racing. It's also why they replaced it with a short stroke V8 as soon as they could:

    Here is a list of the top 5 highest production piston speeds:

    1. Honda S2000:
    Engine Code: F20C1
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
    Redline: 9000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

    2. Lamborghini Gallardo
    Engine Code: N/A
    Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

    3. Acura Integra Type R
    Engine Code: B18C5
    Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
    Redline: 8400rpm
    Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

    4. BMW M3 (Germany)
    Engine Code: S54
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

    5. Honda S2000 2004
    Engine Code: F22C
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

    They also reinforced the block, internals, crank, etc.

    Can the motor survive at 8k? The piston speed reaches
    4708.

    Honestly, RPM kills motors a whole lot faster than anything else. The stress rises geometrically. You can make more than enough power at the stock redline.

    Eventually revving it out will be necessary but it isn't just yet. Those who explore doing this are going to need strengthened internals. I mean some high quality pieces.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    7,900
    Rep Points
    3,879.1
    Mentioned
    320 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I would think you need to shorten the rod a bit to have a good chance, but then you run into angle issues. I still will stick to my guns and say that we will find it will be best to have some upgraded internals to make motor more reliable at 7600 RPM redline with stock compression. Which I think will make it a 800-900 whp car with correct turbo setup. That's not bad at all.

    As it is now, the car only uses a less than 2000 RPM range during a WOT throttle run, so moving the power band up and raising revs just doesn't even seem worth it at this point.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjPP6-Csjz4

    I know things are getting exciting on this platform, but IMO tuning already has some catching up to do with all the turbo kits coming out let alone start throwing built motors and higher revs into the mix.
    When Alex and me were discussing my motor build I actually wanted him to destroke it a little bit so I could get some more RPM's out of it, he told he thought it was a bad idea so I went with his recommendation. I still think he is right. Looking forward to messing around with a built motor!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    3,262
    Rep Points
    1,417.6
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    15


    Reputation: Yes | No
    N54 has hydraulic lifters, but they shouldn't be a worry either going by other motors.

    no reason a long-rod wouldn't be possible, i remember a post by FFTEC where they were building one at 1.64.. not sure what needs doing though.

    the injectors COULD be an issue, but we'll hopefully find out for sure soon.

    and probably springs, especially if there's any/eventually cams available to help out up there even more

    definitely something that could be interesting for those with big turbo setups that could really use the wider power band.
    boop

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,726
    Rep Points
    2,462.7
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    @alex@ABRhouston hey bud, you have an amazing thread already going, any ideas or thoughts on a long rod setup and any associated internals to help us hit 8k?
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    @alex@ABRhouston hey bud, you have an amazing thread already going, any ideas or thoughts on a long rod setup and any associated internals to help us hit 8k?
    He'd definitely a good person to talk to about this.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    3,262
    Rep Points
    1,417.6
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    15


    Reputation: Yes | No
    stock R/S is 1.62 isn't it? would be pretty easy to go either a 1.64 or 1.66 wouldn't it (2mm a step), depending how many much room there is to change the pin height? but would you even see a benefit?
    boop

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    505
    Rep Points
    326.7
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    4


    Reputation: Yes | No
    I think 4 of the 5 engines in that list are undersquare.

    The real question is, what would be the gains in an N54 by revving to 8K? Camshafts and everything else would have to be redone if pistons, rods and crankshaft could take it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    I think 4 of the 5 engines in that list are undersquare.
    Yes but that is why their piston speeds are also so high. Also why they were built so strong.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,930
    Rep Points
    921.6
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    10


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think the problem people will run into before anything else will be keeping the pistons and rods together when going that high. The undersquare design obviously is made with low end torque in mind and not revs. That is literally why the bore and stroke of the S55 and N55 are flipped.

    The S54 is a high revving undersquare design which is odd to see but BMW also pushed that motor to the limit for Motorsport racing. It's also why they replaced it with a short stroke V8 as soon as they could:

    Here is a list of the top 5 highest production piston speeds:

    1. Honda S2000:
    Engine Code: F20C1
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
    Redline: 9000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

    2. Lamborghini Gallardo
    Engine Code: N/A
    Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

    3. Acura Integra Type R
    Engine Code: B18C5
    Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
    Redline: 8400rpm
    Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

    4. BMW M3 (Germany)
    Engine Code: S54
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

    5. Honda S2000 2004
    Engine Code: F22C
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

    They also reinforced the block, internals, crank, etc.

    Can the motor survive at 8k? The piston speed reaches
    4708.

    Honestly, RPM kills motors a whole lot faster than anything else. The stress rises geometrically. You can make more than enough power at the stock redline.

    Eventually revving it out will be necessary but it isn't just yet. Those who explore doing this are going to need strengthened internals. I mean some high quality pieces.
    Are you saying N54 piston speed would be 4708 ft/min at 8krpm?
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Are you saying N54 piston speed would be 4708 ft/min at 8krpm?
    Yes.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    657
    Rep Points
    260.8
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3


    Reputation: Yes | No
    S54 B35, stroked version, twin turbo, 97 mm stroke, 1000 + whp, revving 9200 rpm for the last 4 years.

    Valve train parts, rods, pistons, block all have to be designed / modified to rev 9200 rpm. I found out weak points and went stp by step.

    N54 may rev 9200 rpm, I have no experience with N54, but a big budget and time is needed to fulfill tests.
    E36 M3 Euro TT 60-130 mph 4.49 s
    E46 M3 3.6L TT 60-130 mph 4.22 s
    All Wheel drive M3 Twin Turbo
    997 TT



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    North Houston
    Posts
    1,286
    Rep Points
    1,612.6
    Mentioned
    111 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    17


    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    we went with the same length rod in our custom rods for a few reasons.
    A) simplicity. with a crank ground on stock stroke, rods and pistons just drop in.
    B) option to stroke or destroke. We can offset grind the crank either way- and can accommodate a few different scenarios.
    C) we can use them in N54's, N55's, and N20 variants with very small adjustments to the pistons. They cover a broad range of engines……


    If ya'll want a custom length rod and pistons, lets do it. The issue that comes up, is I would need at LEAST 8 people to put money where their mouths are and straight up buy the rods. I would hate to get stuck with almost 10,000 dollars in rods that everyone talked about but no one acted on. I already am well north of 20,000 dollars in investments developing the rods/pistons/studs for you guys…… in any case, I could make them stock bearing size for drop in's, or in our custom bearing size (because they are WAY cheaper and take 2x the abuse).

    A perfect example of why I want to get away from BMW bearings…….for the two N54 engines Im fully building-JUST the main bearings have cost me over 1000 bucks! STUPID EXPENSIVE. Plus their decoding of the block vs. bed plate colors are really stupid.

    With destroking comes compromise. the piston then gets bigger- and results in heavier reciprocating mass due to its height. we could destroke the crank, but that compounds the issue….


    Whatever ya'll wanna do is cool with me. I have 5 more sets of our custom rods here on the shelf before I have to build another order from the manufacturer. You want a pink polka dotted connecting rods with "sticky killer" on the side? Click here to enlarge makes no difference to me- If you pay for it, I'll build it Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Vargas Turbo dealer and installation center
    Level 10 distributor and installation center
    Burger Motorsports Tier 2 dealer and installation center
    Turner Motorsports dealer and installation center
    Bimmerworld dealer and installation center
    Shipping built/stroked/CNC ported N54's Internationally!
    Follow us!
    http://www.facebook.com/BMWdoctor
    http://twitter.com/abrhouston
    http://instagram.com/abrhouston/
    http://abrhouston.com
    http://abr.genbook.com Book online appointments!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    You want a pink polka dotted connecting rods with "sticky killer" on the side?
    I'd chip in just to see this happen.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Louisville ky
    Posts
    715
    Rep Points
    551.2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Forgive my ignorance of the n54 but why would you want to rev it out like that? Doesn't the power start to fall off around 6k? It sounds like you want a boosted s54 Click here to enlarge
    E46 323i-rip
    e46325ci- sold
    e85 z4-sold
    e46-m3-ripClick here to enlarge
    fj cruiser- sold
    e90 325i-sold
    e30 325i vert-current
    http://theworstdrug.com/25

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,726
    Rep Points
    2,462.7
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    we went with the same length rod in our custom rods for a few reasons.
    A) simplicity. with a crank ground on stock stroke, rods and pistons just drop in.
    B) option to stroke or destroke. We can offset grind the crank either way- and can accommodate a few different scenarios.
    C) we can use them in N54's, N55's, and N20 variants with very small adjustments to the pistons. They cover a broad range of engines……


    If ya'll want a custom length rod and pistons, lets do it. The issue that comes up, is I would need at LEAST 8 people to put money where their mouths are and straight up buy the rods. I would hate to get stuck with almost 10,000 dollars in rods that everyone talked about but no one acted on. I already am well north of 20,000 dollars in investments developing the rods/pistons/studs for you guys…… in any case, I could make them stock bearing size for drop in's, or in our custom bearing size (because they are WAY cheaper and take 2x the abuse).

    A perfect example of why I want to get away from BMW bearings…….for the two N54 engines Im fully building-JUST the main bearings have cost me over 1000 bucks! STUPID EXPENSIVE. Plus their decoding of the block vs. bed plate colors are really stupid.

    With destroking comes compromise. the piston then gets bigger- and results in heavier reciprocating mass due to its height. we could destroke the crank, but that compounds the issue….


    Whatever ya'll wanna do is cool with me. I have 5 more sets of our custom rods here on the shelf before I have to build another order from the manufacturer. You want a pink polka dotted connecting rods with "sticky killer" on the side? Click here to enlarge makes no difference to me- If you pay for it, I'll build it Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,522
    Rep Points
    2,414.6
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
    Forgive my ignorance of the n54 but why would you want to rev it out like that? Doesn't the power start to fall off around 6k? It sounds like you want a boosted s54 Click here to enlarge
    It falls off with stock frame twins. The larger singles and big twin options are just getting on spool at what, 4.5K or so? So ideally if one could rev it out, you'd enjoy a much broader power band. IDK if the N54 is the motor for that though.

    Edit: and if you could, why the hell would you not want to rev it out to 8 or 9 grand?
    E88 N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Motiv HTA 3586r Tial .82AR/Motiv Port Fuel/BMR 3.5" Exhaust/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/ST Coilovers/M3 FCA + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/AA Strutbrace/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
    F30 335 X-Drive EBII....Stock
    Click here to enlarge

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
    Forgive my ignorance of the n54 but why would you want to rev it out like that? Doesn't the power start to fall off around 6k? It sounds like you want a boosted s54 Click here to enlarge
    I think some people have rev-envy...
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,726
    Rep Points
    2,462.7
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think some people have rev-envy...
    You are answering a question nobody is asking. This is quite obviously not for someone with stock turbos. Asking this question with that frame of mind would be the same as asking why do you need 5 wheels for your car.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    You are answering a question nobody is asking. This is quite obviously not for someone with stock turbos. Asking this question with that frame of mind would be the same as asking why do you need 5 wheels for your car.
    I was joking around.

    But in all seriousness there are some serious obstacles as already stated. The first step before anything is going to be fuel.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Louisville ky
    Posts
    715
    Rep Points
    551.2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think some people have rev-envy...
    That's what I was thinking lol there's nothing like hearing that s54 scream at 7000+ rpm Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    It falls off with stock frame twins. The larger singles and big twin options are just getting on spool at what, 4.5K or so? So ideally if one could rev it out, you'd enjoy a much broader power band. IDK if the N54 is the motor for that though.
    Ok that makes more sense ... I haven't seen many upgraded turbo dynos. That's leads me to another question though. If these upgraded turbos don't really come alive till 5,6k it seems like a serious waste I would rather have hybrid twins... Or an engine that's built to rev to 8k
    E46 323i-rip
    e46325ci- sold
    e85 z4-sold
    e46-m3-ripClick here to enlarge
    fj cruiser- sold
    e90 325i-sold
    e30 325i vert-current
    http://theworstdrug.com/25

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •