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Thread: N54 Camshafts.. Maybe a reality soon?

              
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    N54 Camshafts.. Maybe a reality soon?

    After @BTMFR mentioned it in his thread, decided to send an email myself

    Hello, I recently heard that you may be looking into producing camshafts for this motor?

    am just wondering is this true, and if so to roughly what specifications? thanks
    Hello,

    yes that is correct. We're currently working on the specifications, that should be ready in about 1-2 weeks from now.
    The steel billet cores are ready, so we we're roughly looking at 6 weeks before shipping.

    BR,
    Ken Stessens

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    Last edited by Flinchy; 01-14-2014 at 05:33 PM.
    boop

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    uh oh! nice!
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    And it looks like they've made VANOS cams before, so that's promising in itself.
    boop

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    Who is Ken Stessens?

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    Schrick doesn't have anything?

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    @Flinchy can u tell what r the benefits of the cams for n54, for stock turbos and single turbo?

    ported heads required with cams?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Who is Ken Stessens?
    Oh crap my bad

    Catcams

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Schrick doesn't have anything?
    not last time i asked, with zero plans. May as well send another email to them. also emailed crower but haven't got a response yet.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135idct Click here to enlarge
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    @Flinchy can u tell what r the benefits of the cams for n54, for stock turbos and single turbo?

    ported heads required with cams?
    depends on the specs.. if they're mild, everyone will be able to benefit from them.. if a bit too big or 'incorrectly' specced then stock frames may have not much benefit for the most part, given they don't need to breathe up high as much... who knows, will wait and see. And even then, can't really know until you try.
    boop

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    The only benefit of aftermarket camshafts for a motor with VANOS or VVT is to increase the valve lift. Everything else is just mute and complete waste of money. As a matter of fact, most E36s and E46 that have aggressive cams have their VANOS disabled and custom software. So this is a rather expensive option for most NA I6 engines by BMW.

    Considering that the N54 is a turbo engine, there is absolutely no benefit to increase the valve lift at all. So, unless you have truckloads of money to burn and you are bored out of your mind, you could get those cams, risk all kinds of tuning issues, risk premature bearing cap failure for the benefit of the glory.

    I don't mean to be a debbie downer, but this is just a dead end in my honest opinion.
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    Our cams are .380" lift IIRC so there's plenty to gain from just adding some more lift, if it's possible (sometimes there are physical constraints to the head/springs that limit your lift). This would help everybody slightly, but it would mostly help big turbo cars, and really help big turbo cars with headwork. If they increase the duration it could also help make things safer while preserving power, even for stock turbo guys on pump gas by dropping dynamic compression (but they'd be giving up top end if they run meth or E85). So the answer is, it depends.

    Cams out of f***ing nowhere, cool. Usable top end might finally happen for our trusty stump puller, the one ST dyno I've seen at 7500 was previously unremarkable for the associated risk (stock engine, constant boost, gobs of torque drop).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    As a matter of fact, most E36s and E46 that have aggressive cams have their VANOS disabled and custom software.
    This is not true: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...r-head-rebuild

    The cars that have VANOS disabled usually don't care about how they idle or their street drivability. If you are disabling VANOS you are usually going super aggressive for a high redline for racing where low rpm power doesn't even matter.

    Most street BMW's with aftermarket cams retain VANOS.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    The only benefit of aftermarket camshafts for a motor with VANOS or VVT is to increase the valve lift.
    I also don't think this is correct.

    E9X M3 Schrick Camshaft Set (284 Degree) for E90/E92 M3 $2,599.00:

    1 0485E1841-L0 Intake Cam (left) 284/132-74/12.0mm/0.15-6.72mm
    1 0485E1841-R0 Intake Cam (right) 284/132-74/12.0mm/0.15-6.72mm
    1 0485A1841-L0 Exhaust Cam (left) 284/134-86/12.0mm/0.17-5.05mm
    1 0485A1841-R0 Exhaust Cam (right) 284/134-86/12.0mm/0.17-5.05mm

    E9X M3 Schrick Camshaft Set (292 Degree) for E90/E92 M3 $2,799.00:

    1 0485E1921-L0 Intake Cam (left) 292/132-74/12.2mm/0.4mm-7.37mm
    1 0485E1921-R0 Intake Cam (right) 292/132-74/12.2mm/0.4mm-7.37mm
    1 0485A1921-L0 Exhaust Cam (left) 292/134-86/12.2mm/0.35mm-5.75mm
    1 0485A1921-R0 Exhaust Cam (right) 292/134-86/12.2mm/0.35mm-5.75mm



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    Additionally, if you are going to play with cams you better have a an epic tuner who knows VANOS. Just plugging the cams in won't do much of anything with the stock VANOS profile.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Additionally, if you are going to play with cams you better have a an epic tuner who knows VANOS. Just plugging the cams in won't do much of anything with the stock VANOS profile.
    I know the engine is closed loop and all, but for cams to be truly tuned we're going to need access to the VE tables. Which I haven't seen yet. So any tuning for these things is going to have to rely on the closed loop superhero DME and massaging things until then. Unless I'm missing something about MAP based cars of this century which is entirely possible.

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    I'd love to have a set of cams to go with my cylinder head. Given flow numbers (see my cylinder head thread) and the OEM valve lift the head+cam package could see some pretty serious gains IMHO
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    This is not true: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...r-head-rebuild

    The cars that have VANOS disabled usually don't care about how they idle or their street drivability. If you are disabling VANOS you are usually going super aggressive for a high redline for racing where low rpm power doesn't even matter.

    Most street BMW's with aftermarket cams retain VANOS.



    I also don't think this is correct.

    E9X M3 Schrick Camshaft Set (284 Degree) for E90/E92 M3 $2,599.00:

    1 0485E1841-L0 Intake Cam (left) 284/132-74/12.0mm/0.15-6.72mm
    1 0485E1841-R0 Intake Cam (right) 284/132-74/12.0mm/0.15-6.72mm
    1 0485A1841-L0 Exhaust Cam (left) 284/134-86/12.0mm/0.17-5.05mm
    1 0485A1841-R0 Exhaust Cam (right) 284/134-86/12.0mm/0.17-5.05mm

    E9X M3 Schrick Camshaft Set (292 Degree) for E90/E92 M3 $2,799.00:

    1 0485E1921-L0 Intake Cam (left) 292/132-74/12.2mm/0.4mm-7.37mm
    1 0485E1921-R0 Intake Cam (right) 292/132-74/12.2mm/0.4mm-7.37mm
    1 0485A1921-L0 Exhaust Cam (left) 292/134-86/12.2mm/0.35mm-5.75mm
    1 0485A1921-R0 Exhaust Cam (right) 292/134-86/12.2mm/0.35mm-5.75mm



    Sticky,

    what are the stock cam specs? Duration and lift, if you don't mind? I do not suppose they are that far for the current set. Also, most of these will require valve spring change and possibly converting to solid lifters.

    Again, all this is true for NA motors. For FI motors valve lift is not that important at all.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    Sticky,

    what are the stock cam specs? Duration and lift, if you don't mind? I do not suppose they are that far for the current set. Also, most of these will require valve spring change and possibly converting to solid lifters.

    Again, all this is true for NA motors. For FI motors valve lift is not that important at all.
    I'd have to go looking for them as I don't know of the top of my head (although I should) but was pointing out clearly you're messing with more than lift.

    Changing the valve springs is probably a good idea especially if you choose a cam shifting the powerband a bit and you think you can rev some more.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
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    Our cams are .380" lift IIRC so there's plenty to gain from just adding some more lift, if it's possible (sometimes there are physical constraints to the head/springs that limit your lift).
    There may be room left for increased lift, I have no doubts about that. But actual HP gain on a FI motor, I doubt it would be much. At least not for the stock turbo cars.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
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    Usable top end might finally happen for our trusty stump puller, the one ST dyno I've seen at 7500 was previously unremarkable for the associated risk (stock engine, constant boost, gobs of torque drop).
    Usable top end in our case becomes improved not from lift, but from duration. Again, this is an FI motor, not NA. To improve the top end on our cars we need to a) increase the turbo size, b) fiddle with the vanos.

    If my memory serves me right, our cams are 272 degrees of duration for both intake and exhaust. VANOS adds another 10 degrees in each direction. So we have usable range of 262 - 282 degrees.

    At 282 cam duration on FI motor is pretty big in my opinion. It's about tuning the VANOS.
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    At the power levels ST's are at, with the stock head port size and cam lift, there is no way they are not close to choking I bet. How fast can the air go before choke, half the speed of sound IIRC right? So more lift will help this some. Porting will help it more, and porting with more lift will help it even more. Duration on the VVT I agree, but it can still be used to mess with the overlap/dynamic compression without having to sacrifice when the valves open or close.

    I do agree with you though benefits for stock turbo guys will be limited. Peak power in a maxed out setup probably wont move, but maybe some more torque. Peak power in a 91ACN stock turbo FBO setup might go up 10 or 15whp, but with less potential with good gas since it would max the turbo sooner. As for risks, there's always risks. Unless I had a ported head and big turbo this wouldn't interest me in the slightest, but to each their own.

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    With an N/A motor, you want long duration so you can benefit from the overlap period more. Overlapping cams on a turbo engine is a waste of power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    The only benefit of aftermarket camshafts for a motor with VANOS or VVT is to increase the valve lift. Everything else is just mute and complete waste of money. As a matter of fact, most E36s and E46 that have aggressive cams have their VANOS disabled and custom software. So this is a rather expensive option for most NA I6 engines by BMW.

    Considering that the N54 is a turbo engine, there is absolutely no benefit to increase the valve lift at all. So, unless you have truckloads of money to burn and you are bored out of your mind, you could get those cams, risk all kinds of tuning issues, risk premature bearing cap failure for the benefit of the glory.

    I don't mean to be a debbie downer, but this is just a dead end in my honest opinion.
    and the only reason to disable VANOS, is if you have an aftermarket ECU that can't control it, there are no upsides to removing vanos except maybe weight for RPM's.. and less complexity.. but you're giving up a lot of benefit for that potential gain. (VANOS *DOES* work at higher RPM's too) especially on our turbo motors where vanos changes massively effect boost response and spool.

    and why wouldn't increasing lift with being turbo? increasing lift makes it easier to breathe, easier on the turbos to force the air in there. flow is flow.

    i mean.. they benefit on every other VANOS equipped engine (just look at the S54/S65 before and after cams lol)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    There may be room left for increased lift, I have no doubts about that. But actual HP gain on a FI motor, I doubt it would be much. At least not for the stock turbo cars.



    Usable top end in our case becomes improved not from lift, but from duration. Again, this is an FI motor, not NA. To improve the top end on our cars we need to a) increase the turbo size, b) fiddle with the vanos.

    If my memory serves me right, our cams are 272 degrees of duration for both intake and exhaust. VANOS adds another 10 degrees in each direction. So we have usable range of 262 - 282 degrees.

    At 282 cam duration on FI motor is pretty big in my opinion. It's about tuning the VANOS.
    gains are gains IMO. and what it does for us will have to be seen first.

    and yes, it should be very clear to everyone that it won't be a bolt on and see max gains mod, much tuning to be had. heck, the tuners will have their own learning curve with them.

    and N54 cam specs? http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...2/Camshaft.jpg.. both cams are 244deg according to that, and that's about right for what i remember of other spec sheets listing lift etc... nowhere n

    and as for the VANOS being 10deg each direction? it says 'infinitely variable'.. but in the cobb maps i've seen, it looks like more.. at least -10 to +30 or something? more? -30 to +30? does anyone know xactly? i've been trying to find out for a while now. and it takes about 100rpm to move 30 degrees..

    also, i don't believe vanos can do duration, purely timing. so again, not 282 degrees at all, just 244 being advanced or retarded... the actual mechanism of adjusting fast enough at high RPM to increase the duration in a single revolution just boggles my mind at being even remotely possible lol
    Last edited by Flinchy; 01-14-2014 at 08:32 PM.
    boop

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    RE VANOS angles:

    "I've discovered that VANOS can adjust the angles of both camshafts from -72 degrees to +72 degrees. Its in INPA test conditions for VANOS solenoids for N54"

    someone on other forum.

    ED: and in your first post you say duration won't help a VANOS equipped motor.. of course it does.
    boop

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    I'd love to see a video of how VANOS works in real time....I agree it really is almost mind boggling...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    and N54 cam specs? http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...2/Camshaft.jpg.. both cams are 244deg according to that, and that's about right for what i remember of other spec sheets listing lift etc... nowhere n
    aaand just noticed that was for some random 125cc motor? wat.

    however..

    http://ebookbrowsee.net/n55-engine-pdf-d413904063

    also makes my VANOS adjustment values a lie though lol (actually 55/45 deg of crankshaft it says)... that doc says intake is 245, exhaust is 261 duration.

    and just realized the person that said 72-72 degrees of vanos adjustment was you @vasillalov ... what's with the conflicting and strange stuff coming from you haha... first it was 72-72.. then it was 10-10 now it's actually 55 and 45 :/
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    I'd love to see a video of how VANOS works in real time....I agree it really is almost mind boggling...
    +1.. i think i have a decent picture in my head, but probably not lol. even 30 degrees in 100rpm is incredibly fast adjustment considering how short 100rpm is.
    boop

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    If only we had vtec.

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    I honestly think VTEC should be on all motors

    how does having a low end cam and a high end cam not just plain make sense if it can be done?

    lumpiest bastard ever on the high side, with factory idle and low end -_-
    boop

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