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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    Tony, your advertising ends up doing the opposite since you are so defensive about things. I will be upgrading my turbo some time this year, so I am your potential customer. If your product is superior why would you not want to get all of the information out there that you possibly can and compare the products?

    The thread title is also misleading as this isn't a true comparison, just your version of things which are obviously biased. I am open to any of the turbo upgrades and I love BB turbos, but spool on BB turbos are virtually the same as JB turbos. Transient response on BB is better though. To say any BB turbo is going to be superior to JB is incorrect. The compressor side does make some difference on spool, but the turbine side does have a larger determination on spool. With the smaller compressor the JB might spool the same as the BB turbo.

    TL/DR - A thread that only allows certain people to comment is not going to be a good comparison thread. Maybe a regular member should start one later on when we have more data about all 3 hybrid options.
    I respect your thread and your opinion, but if you read my post closely you will see I said an JB turbo compared to a BB turbo of comparable size will ALWAYS be superior, again, this is not an opinion, this is not a debate, that is a fact. Do your research, call PTE, call FP, call Comp Turbo, email Garrett, Email Borg Warner, ask them if you have similar sized turbochargers which one is superior BB or JB, which one will spool faster, which one will have better transient response, which one is going to have greater durability. Get back to us with what you are told, I can promise you every single person will hands down tell you, its not even a question, BB everytime, this is what justifies sometimes double the cost. Also I would love to know where you are getting your Turbocharger knowledge, I am not being rude here, just curious, because yes if you swing compressor size by a big measurement, sure you will see a slight spool difference, SLIGHT if the same turbine is used. But same turbine, different compressor, spool is basically unchanged if the comp wheels are close, if you want to conclude a JB turbo will spool virtually like a BB, ok some will some wont, but I will concede that even though I dont agree. Now lets get into transient response, vastly superior, lets get into durability, vastly superior. These are all factors to be taken into account.

    So basically what is happening here is it seems were are going to be pushing these things to the LIMIT to get as much WHP as we can, so basically with a JB CHRA you are going to see what you see with the N54 offerings pushed to the limit, oiling issues, and early failures due to the extra stress. Going with a highly durable, highly efficient BB CHRA with no thrust parts will help eliminate these early failures. I am still very confused as to why people expect me to let RB post about his turbo offerings in my threads? If you want to know about his offerings, you can head over to one of the forums where he is a vendor and I am sure he will answer any questions you may have about them. This is my business thread, I am not going to share it with my competition selling a directly competing product. If people want to save a few bucks and go with a JB turbo when a BB option is on the market, that is their choice. Just like Garrett and many other turbo companies offer cheaper JB turbos, but the people who are serious about their turbochargers always go BB if the option exists.

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I respect your thread and your opinion, but if you read my post closely you will see I said an JB turbo compared to a BB turbo of comparable size will ALWAYS be superior, again, this is not an opinion, this is not a debate, that is a fact. Do your research, call PTE, call FP, call Comp Turbo, email Garrett, Email Borg Warner, ask them if you have similar sized turbochargers which one is superior BB or JB, which one will spool faster, which one will have better transient response, which one is going to have greater durability. Get back to us with what you are told, I can promise you every single person will hands down tell you, its not even a question, BB everytime, this is what justifies sometimes double the cost. Also I would love to know where you are getting your Turbocharger knowledge, I am not being rude here, just curious, because yes if you swing compressor size by a big measurement, sure you will see a slight spool difference, SLIGHT if the same turbine is used. But same turbine, different compressor, spool is basically unchanged if the comp wheels are close, if you want to conclude a JB turbo will spool virtually like a BB, ok some will some wont, but I will concede that even though I dont agree. Now lets get into transient response, vastly superior, lets get into durability, vastly superior. These are all factors to be taken into account.
    Talking down to potential customers who have been in the industry longer than you, great business decisions. I started modding turbo'd cars in '92, when did you start? I also know that you need a reverse thread on a reverse rotation wheel. I hope you didn't ship those turbos out like that.

    You will also notice that I said basically the same thing you did in my first post. BB turbo's have been proven to normally have 100-300 RPM better spool depending on the turbo size. On a small turbo like this you are looking at maybe 100-150RPM better spool than a comparable JB turbo. While compressor size does not have as large or affect on spool as the turbine it DOES affect spool. It is simple physics and has been proven. Again, this is not a major change and the difference in size between the RB and yours could easily make up the 100RPM difference in spool.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    So basically what is happening here is it seems were are going to be pushing these things to the LIMIT to get as much WHP as we can, so basically with a JB CHRA you are going to see what you see with the N54 offerings pushed to the limit, oiling issues, and early failures due to the extra stress. Going with a highly durable, highly efficient BB CHRA with no thrust parts will help eliminate these early failures. I am still very confused as to why people expect me to let RB post about his turbo offerings in my threads? If you want to know about his offerings, you can head over to one of the forums where he is a vendor and I am sure he will answer any questions you may have about them. This is my business thread, I am not going to share it with my competition selling a directly competing product. If people want to save a few bucks and go with a JB turbo when a BB option is on the market, that is their choice. Just like Garrett and many other turbo companies offer cheaper JB turbos, but the people who are serious about their turbochargers always go BB if the option exists.
    There are several different "limits" that could be causing the cap in performance. Backpressure could be the limit in which case the maximum flow of the housing has been reached. That does not mean we are seeing excessive turbo RPM though, that is dependent on turbine wheel size compared to the housing size/flow. The turbo could be within safe operating RPM and still max out the housing. If this is the case, then there will be minimal added stress to the turbo. You haven't done the testing to be able to say what the limiting factor is.

    BB turbo's are also more picky to oil pressure than a JB turbo, especially on the high end. A BB will operate with lower oil pressure though. On most platforms it becomes more reliable to stay with the style of CHRA that came on the car. You will see restrictors used on most cars that convert to BB.

    Lastly, we want input from all parties involved in the same thread so we can separate the BS from the facts. All parties involved are biased so it would be nice if we could hammer things out and see what the truth is. We won't be able to see that until we have data from the other 2 options out there though.

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    Talking down to potential customers who have been in the industry longer than you, great business decisions. I started modding turbo'd cars in '92, when did you start? I also know that you need a reverse thread on a reverse rotation wheel. I hope you didn't ship those turbos out like that.

    You will also notice that I said basically the same thing you did in my first post. BB turbo's have been proven to normally have 100-300 RPM better spool depending on the turbo size. On a small turbo like this you are looking at maybe 100-150RPM better spool than a comparable JB turbo. While compressor size does not have as large or affect on spool as the turbine it DOES affect spool. It is simple physics and has been proven. Again, this is not a major change and the difference in size between the RB and yours could easily make up the 100RPM difference in spool.



    There are several different "limits" that could be causing the cap in performance. Backpressure could be the limit in which case the maximum flow of the housing has been reached. That does not mean we are seeing excessive turbo RPM though, that is dependent on turbine wheel size compared to the housing size/flow. The turbo could be within safe operating RPM and still max out the housing. If this is the case, then there will be minimal added stress to the turbo. You haven't done the testing to be able to say what the limiting factor is.

    BB turbo's are also more picky to oil pressure than a JB turbo, especially on the high end. A BB will operate with lower oil pressure though. On most platforms it becomes more reliable to stay with the style of CHRA that came on the car. You will see restrictors used on most cars that convert to BB.

    Lastly, we want input from all parties involved in the same thread so we can separate the BS from the facts. All parties involved are biased so it would be nice if we could hammer things out and see what the truth is. We won't be able to see that until we have data from the other 2 options out there though.
    This is of course the problem with written context, you read it as me talking down to you, not how it was written at all, I had limited time this am and wrote off a quick answer trying to state facts about BB VS JB turbochargers. Bottom line is, if you are interested in the merits of the JB offering coming up, I am sure the manufacture can give you all the information. Turbocharger industry standard states BB turbochargers are superior which is why everyone uses them now. That is why we spent the extra money and went the extra mile to make our upgrade a BB unit.

    Didn't see your bottom paragraph at first, no one tested the N54 until we came along and the results were as expected, 3:1 BP, and high shaft speeds. I do not think we will see as high of shaft speeds, but with that turbine house 475-525 is about where it will be before backpressure starts stacking up, the wheel has more in it, how do we know, well because the same wheel combo with bigger housings has made weel over 600WHP. No brainer there. I still think we can get 500 WHP out it as it sits now. As far as oil pressure, yes you are correct, that is exactly why they make feed restrictors specifically for the garrett DBB CHRA's which takes care of this problem for you, if you run one without the restrictor it wont last long. Thats a well known fact.

    If people cannot take the time to read 2 different threads from competing companies about their products and draw their conclusions based on that, not sure what to tell you. You will not find any information on other turbo offerings in my threads, I am here to promote our products not theirs. I am sure if you look on the sites they choose to support with vendors fees you will find plenty of info on that offering, and you will not find me posting in there, why because its not my place to post in a competitors thread.

    Getting back to work. Thank you for the inquiry.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 01-22-2014 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    If people cannot take the time to read 2 different threads from competing companies about their products and draw their conclusions based on that, not sure what to tell you. You will not find any information on other turbo offerings in my threads, I am here to promote our products not theirs. I am sure if you look on the sites they choose to support with vendors fees you will find plenty of info on that offering, and you will not find me posting in there, why because its not my place to post in a competitors thread.
    That isn't the point, the point is with everyone talking in one thread you are going to get rid of the marketing BS that is spread around and end up with the real facts that are supported with data. Hearsay, assumptions and sales pitch won't have the data to back them up. Everyone in business does it whether they realize it or not. People are passionate and think they have the best solution which therefore makes the other solutions not as good as their own. Most of the time that is not the case though and it is up to us customers to try and figure out the facts from the fiction (that is why everyone looks at reviews and star ratings on products before we buy).

    I do think you have come up with a very viable solution, but there is a possibility the results from the competition may be just as good. We will just have to wait and see, it is much too early to say the other units are inferior (although I have my doubts about the PFT unit without an upgraded turbine wheel).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    Tony, your advertising ends up doing the opposite since you are so defensive about things. I will be upgrading my turbo some time this year, so I am your potential customer. If your product is superior why would you not want to get all of the information out there that you possibly can and compare the products?

    The thread title is also misleading as this isn't a true comparison, just your version of things which are obviously biased. I am open to any of the turbo upgrades and I love BB turbos, but spool on BB turbos are virtually the same as JB turbos. Transient response on BB is better though. To say any BB turbo is going to be superior to JB is incorrect. The compressor side does make some difference on spool, but the turbine side does have a larger determination on spool. With the smaller compressor the JB might spool the same as the BB turbo.

    TL/DR - A thread that only allows certain people to comment is not going to be a good comparison thread. Maybe a regular member should start one later on when we have more data about all 3 hybrid options.
    He's not saying don't talk about BB or JB turbos. He's saying it's not fair for a competitor to piggyback off his advertising.

    Feel free to discuss the turbos all you want. If any competitor wants that same privilege they need to stop being disrespectful and abusing the system.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He's not saying don't talk about BB or JB turbos. He's saying it's not fair for a competitor to piggyback off his advertising.

    Feel free to discuss the turbos all you want. If any competitor wants that same privilege they need to stop being disrespectful and abusing the system.
    Exactly, how is this getting so misconstrued, its very simple. You guys being potential customers, etc, if you want to discuss the differences feel free, but I wont have my thread an open forum for competitors to advertise on my dime.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Exactly, how is this getting so misconstrued, its very simple. You guys being potential customers, etc, if you want to discuss the differences feel free, but I wont have my thread an open forum for competitors to advertise on my dime.
    You guys don't seem to be getting my point; they people with the data need to be the ones conversing, not us customers. We don't have the data available to us to have the meaningful banter that would allow the facts to come out. I do agree RB should be a sponsor of the forum for that to happen and it will need to wait until they have an actual product available with dyno results.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    You guys don't seem to be getting my point; they people with the data need to be the ones conversing, not us customers. We don't have the data available to us to have the meaningful banter that would allow the facts to come out. I do agree RB should be a sponsor of the forum for that to happen and it will need to wait until they have an actual product available with dyno results.
    It's an irrelevant point as there is no reason customers can't have experience or data. Furthermore, just because someone is a vendor doesn't mean they know everything. Customers SHOULD participate.

    Regardless, this is a Vargas created thread so if you want a different style discussion or participants you should create your own thread.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's an irrelevant point as there is no reason customers can't have experience or data. Furthermore, just because someone is a vendor doesn't mean they know everything. Customers SHOULD participate.

    Regardless, this is a Vargas created thread so if you want a different style discussion or participants you should create your own thread.
    How many customers have facts on Vargas' turbo upgrade? How many on RB's since it isn't even made yet? How could the vendor not have more info than the customer since they made the product?!? Customers should participate and drive the discussion, but the majority of the data is going to need to come from the vendors.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    How many customers have facts on Vargas' turbo upgrade? How many on RB's since it isn't even made yet?
    I don't know. Do you somehow know the total knowledge of all the posters on this forum? I don't.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    How could the vendor not have more info than the customer since they made the product?!?
    On what their product entails? Sure. On turbocharging in general? I think we have some smart people here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    Customers should participate and drive the discussion, but the majority of the data is going to need to come from the vendors.
    I think information should come from those with the most knowledge whomever they may be. That is not only vendors.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JET Click here to enlarge
    That isn't the point, the point is with everyone talking in one thread you are going to get rid of the marketing BS that is spread around and end up with the real facts that are supported with data. Hearsay, assumptions and sales pitch won't have the data to back them up. Everyone in business does it whether they realize it or not. People are passionate and think they have the best solution which therefore makes the other solutions not as good as their own. Most of the time that is not the case though and it is up to us customers to try and figure out the facts from the fiction (that is why everyone looks at reviews and star ratings on products before we buy).

    I do think you have come up with a very viable solution, but there is a possibility the results from the competition may be just as good. We will just have to wait and see, it is much too early to say the other units are inferior (although I have my doubts about the PFT unit without an upgraded turbine wheel).
    The forum rules are setup the way they are. It's probably easier to just work within those rules. So make a thread called "Differences between N55 turbo upgrades?", post comments from each vendor, then they will be compelled to come in to your thread (where you will agree not to ban any of them) and openly discuss the upgrades.
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